Episode 4

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Published on:

12th Aug 2026

Critical Mess to Critical Mass: democratic innovation for collective climate action

Critical Mess to Critical Mass: democratic innovation for collective climate action

“The climate crisis and the crisis of democracy are two sides of the same coin. You cannot imagine any kind of vision of a desirable future that doesn't entail both environmental and democratic repair going together.”

“The main problem is that politicians and institutions are not trusting people. [So we are] missing the collective intelligence, the capacity that could be unlocked, [by] mobilising, larger networks and groups of people for collective action.”

Join me as I interview Professor Oliver Escobar, Professor of Public Policy and Democratic Innovation, at the University of Edinburgh as he talks about his experience as a deeply engaged academic and how we can all work together to shift from being in a critical mess to creating a critical mass for meaningful change.

You will discover:

  • How good people inside dysfunctional institutions are keen to change things;
  • Why climate assemblies are unexpectedly radical;
  • How politicians will get more done when they share power; and much more.

I’m joined later in the episode by co-host Morag Watson and Dr Marian Bruce of Bioregioning Tayside to reflect on Oliver’s ideas and insights, and draw out practical lessons that could help changemakers in our work for people and nature in the polycrisis, including:

  • The absolute importance of building trust in and across communities, organisations and institutions;
  • The power of starting ongoing processes, instead of time limited projects;
  • The power of working at scales where people know each other and can work together collectively.

Thrivable Scotland is the podcast for, by and about changemakers working for people and nature. We ask how can we build resilience, regenerate natural systems and cultivate collective wellbeing, so people and the rest of nature can thrive, right now and whatever the polycrisis brings next. We explore what’s working, why it’s working and how it could help you in your work.

Connect:

Find organisations and resources mentioned in this episode, plus further links to explore, in our collection on Semble.

Transcript
Oliver Escobar:

To me, the climate crisis and the crisis of democracy

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are two sides of the same coin.

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You cannot imagine any kind of

vision of a desirable future that

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doesn't entail both environmental

and democratic repair going together.

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In a lot of, media conversations about

politics and even in a lot of research,

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one of the points that gets made is that,

people don't trust politicians, people are

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increasingly, distrustful of institutions.

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But actually, I don't think

that that's the main problem.

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I think it goes the other way around.

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I think the main problem is that

politicians and institutions

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are not trusting people.

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And if you don't have institutions

and formal power holders and leaders

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who trust people, then you're in

trouble because you're gonna build

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a system that keeps people away from

decision making and power spaces.

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And once you do that, you're

missing the collective intelligence

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that you need to mobilise.

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You're missing the resources, the

capacity that could be unlocked, if you

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were mobilising, larger networks and

groups of people for collective action,

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and once you lose that, you're absolutely

doomed because you are forever locked into

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a system that undermines its own future.

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Hi there.

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I'm Osbert Lancaster, and you're

listening to Thrivable Scotland, the

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podcast for change makers, working for

people and nature in the poly crisis.

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That was Oliver Escobar, professor of

Public Policy and Democratic Innovation

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at the University of Edinburgh.

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When I was recording this, I got a bit

worried as Oliver launched off into

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historical theories of democracy, but

it was actually so relevant to what

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is happening today, and it really

set the scene for the rest of the

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conversation when Oliver got stuck

into the practical stuff like building

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alliances with burnt out public

servants, why climate assemblies are

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unexpectedly radical, and how sharing

power gets things done and much more.

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Let's get started.

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Come and join me in Oliver for a walk

around the meadows near his office

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at the University of Edinburgh.

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Oliver Escobar: I guess my main area

of work is democracy and the state of

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democracy and the future of democracy.

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So I've done a lot of work on the

practical side, processes, practitioners,

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practises in communities and institutions.

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Then I have a strand of work on political

economy, which is about understanding

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that democratic life is underpinned

by both political and economic life.

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Another big part has been the

field of democratic innovations,

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democratic innovations are new

civic institutions or processes, for

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example, like, climate assemblies.

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Osbert: Yeah, I was thinking the climate

assemblies is one of the things you're

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probably most well known for in Scotland.

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Oliver Escobar: Yeah.

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I've been quite involved in that,

participatory budgeting as well,

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community anchor organisations, digital,

kind of participation processes, new

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kind of digitally enabled collective

intelligence, kind of systems for

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communities, for institutions.

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So democratic innovations is a really

large field, of all these kind of

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processes and institutions that are

trying to create a new institutional

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landscape to translate, public

participation into collective action.

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I'm interested, not just in the theory of

these things, but in the practise and I've

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been a facilitator and process designer

and mediator in, in a number of processes

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over the years, lately a little bit,

less hands on because I have a very small

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daughter and just keeping me very busy.

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Osbert: So in all that stuff

you're doing, there's five, seven

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different conversations we could

have, each could be a podcast

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episode, but we're not gonna do that.

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But I'd like to do that is to maybe focus

in on this idea of democratic repair.

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I think one of the things that,

you know, with this idea the

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Thrivable Scotland, what we need

to have, a thrivable Scotland.

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a Scotland where people and nature

can thrive, whatever happens

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with the polycrisis I suspect

we need to be doing three things.

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We need to be building resilience.

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We need to be, regenerating natural

systems locally and globally.

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And I've, I've not quite found the

right language, but I've been thinking

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it's something about healing society.

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'cause we all in this perception that

a lot of the society is broken but

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there's actually a lot of research,

which to me says, well it's not

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nearly as broken as we think it is.

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And that's perhaps that

that is part of the problem.

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And also, a slight worry, I suppose with

the idea of talking about healing society

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is that there's, there's some sort of

ideal society we could heal and get back

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to, I'm not sure there ever has been.

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So maybe your professorship of public

policy and democratic innovation, suggests

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there are new ways of doing things rather

than perhaps, healing and repair suggests,

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where do, where do you sit on that?

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Is that, is it, is it broken?

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Oliver Escobar: I guess the

first thing to say is to do with

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how we understand democracy.

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Because you know, if you take, the

kind of view that comes from the

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political science I studied in the late

nineties, in my faculty in Santiago di

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Compostela, in Galicia, in the northwest

of Spain, then it's a traditional

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view of political science, democracy's

a set of institutions and legal

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frameworks and party political systems

and public administration structures.

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And that is the kind of mainstream

understanding of democracy that we

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inherited after the Second World

War, it's the version of democracy

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that won, not necessarily the popular

imagination, but certainly the mainstream,

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public mediatised, imagination.

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And there are reasons

for why that version won.

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But there were other versions.

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We could go back to the 1920s, we

could go back to previous centuries.

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We actually, we wanted to tell a

proper history of democracy, we'll

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have to go back 5,000 years, but

probably we don't want do that.

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But before the second World War,

there was already a, a vision of a

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participatory democracy ,that is built

on a participatory society, that is

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built on a participatory economy.

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These things were already there.

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Osbert: For instance, tell me.

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Oliver Escobar: So for example,

Mary Parker Follett for example, an

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organisational researcher, she published

, a really, important book in:

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which was about different ways of

organising institutions, organisations,

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and companies in more participatory ways.

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So there were people like John

Dewey, American pragmatist, educator

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and philosopher, who again, is one

of the key voices in the sort of

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participatory democratic canon.

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His philosophy of pragmatism in

the best sense of the word was

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about democracy as a living system.

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He has this, this way of thinking about

democracy that up to today participatory

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democrats tend to refer to, which is: when

we understand democracy as a way of life,

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not something that only happens in certain

spaces or institutions, but something that

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should permeate our relationships, the way

we, the way we live in our neighbourhoods,

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the way we interact in our workplaces,

the way we build institutions at the

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local, regional, national, transnational

level, the way we relate to each

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other, even in familial relationships.

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And it's a question about, how do

we build ways of being that are more

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egalitarian and based on co-creation,

co-production, co-governance, … So

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democracy is a way of life, it's just a

way of looking at things, that says that

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democracy lives in everyday relationships.

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Not just in the systems that we, we then

built to translate those relationships

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into policy or collective action.

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Osbert: But generally it seems

to me, when we do think about

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democracy, we probably we're

thinking, oh, it's about elections.

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And depending on our level of policy

nerdness, we get excited or our

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heart sink at the thought of it.

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Oliver Escobar: That question keeps

us in the:

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really important debate then, the most

famous figureheads for that debate were

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John Dewey and, Walter Lippmann, and

there's a very famous debate, around

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this, a very public debate, because

Lipman and then others like Schumpeter

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and others put forward a vision of

democracy that was elite driven.

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Their view was that you,

you cannot trust people.

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The best you can trust them with is that

they will be able to choose good leaders.

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So we trust them to do that, and then

they should leave the business of

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governing to the elites that we choose.

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And that became that, that was considered

the only workable form of democracy

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for large scale mass societies.

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Now, on the other side of the debate

was Dewey who said, well, democracy

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has to live in everyday relationships,

has to live in working relationships,

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it has to live in the way we build

our economies, our schools, our

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neighbourhoods, our, our broader systems.

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Unless that happens, democracy is not

secure because it's seen as something that

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others do for us rather than something

that is part of the fabric of society.

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And he wrote about this in the thirties

as totalitarianism, including in my own

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country in Spain, where authoritarian

leaders and fascists, and dictatorships

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of all kinds were, kind of taking over.

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So he was giving a very clear

warning: If democracy is an elite

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driven business, then we are in

trouble because it won't survive.

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Because all you need to do is to take

the head off and put a new head in

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and you can transform the system.

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If democracy lives from the bottom

up in everyday relationships in our

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communities, and then that translates

into the way we build institutions,

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then you have a different type

of that is much more resilient.

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And to me, that's where we get to

the point of democratic repair.

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Right?

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Right.

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What does it mean to do democratic repair

in the context we find ourselves in?

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'cause on the one hand, there is a repair

of our existing institutions, so that's

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an important part, they, they, they

definitely need repair and they know it.

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And we working with many of these

institutions, parliaments and local

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governments and public agencies and

so on, economic institutions as well.

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So that's one part of it.

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But the other part, and just as

important, I think, is the democratic

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repair in everyday relationships, in

communities, in the way we relate to

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each other in our world, that because

of the contemporary political economy

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of the kind of capitalism we are

living in now, is very much designed

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to destroy the very relationships and

relational fabric of democratic life.

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And because we find ourselves in that

situation, we're pushing against a

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really strong tide, so part of this

is about recovering the foundation for

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democratic life, which to me is the space

of the common, and not just the commons.

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The commons, is part of it, but the

"common" as a principle of political life.

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Which is a principle that says it's

not just about aggregating preferences

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through the ballot box or through market

mechanisms, is about all kinds of forms

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of relational solidarity, of, public

reasoning, of collective intelligence,

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mobilisation to address challenges, and

rooted in, in basic democratic, principles

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of equality and solidarity, and, and,

and all the things that we associate

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with the, with the ideals, right?

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So democratic repair comes at all these

different levels, but to me it starts

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in communities and in Scotland we are, I

think, sometimes we don't appreciate this.

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Sometimes it helps when, you know,

we do a lot of work, in other

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countries and, and with partners

in different parts of the world.

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I, can be quite critical about where

we are in Scotland, but sometimes, when

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you look around, you realise that for

all the many challenges we face, there's

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a really, really strong foundation.

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Osbert: So tell me, dig into that a bit

more, I don't think about it in terms

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of democratic repair and democracy, but

certainly in terms of sort of climate

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change, sustainability and so on, I

think Scotland has this reputation, has

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built its reputation of talking up, it's

sort of ambition and so on around that.

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And then we get very upset when the

reality falls well below that ambition.

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But then meeting people from other

countries, it seems like our reality

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is actually very often not as bad

as we believe it is, given where

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other people are, which is not to say

it's any good, but it's… is the same

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thing happening in democracy as well?

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Oliver Escobar: Yeah.

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Well, and, this restlessness, this

is state of where we're, where we're

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thinking, oh, this is just not good

enough, or this could be better.

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That's a good thing to keep.

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We need to keep that, because it'll

keep us moving and away from complacency.

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To me, the climate crisis and

the crisis of democracy are

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two sides of the same coin.

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You cannot imagine any kind of

vision of a desirable future that

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doesn't entail both environmental

and democratic repair going together.

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And arguably for either of

or or or both to happen.

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They need to be looked at

as completely interlinked.

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Because democracy, if we were to boil it

down, the pithiest kind of definition that

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I, that I like on this is that "democracy

is about how we live together and apart".

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So it has those two sides, right?

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There has to be a space for difference

and sometimes for conflict that might

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take a long time to address, and we

need to have safe ways of living in

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the same space, but apart in safe ways.

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But then there's the other bit,

which is how we live together,

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how we govern ourselves.

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Osbert: That living apart bit

that's really interesting.

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It's like, how do we.

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How do we agree to disagree?

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And we've, seems we getting

worse and worse at that.

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Oliver Escobar: Yeah.

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And it's essential to the

protection of, minority rights.

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And it's essential to all some of

the big things that are, on the

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media all the time, treated in very

aggressive ways like migration and so

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on, which again, completely connected

to the climate crisis as well.

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So, so if we think in those terms,

then you gotta look at what foundations

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do we have in Scotland for that?

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And Scotland has an incredible, I,

I don't have a better word for this,

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and colleagues in the field don't

like it, but, sometimes they speak

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of the community sector, right?

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So, I prefer to call it

the commons, although the

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commons is broader than right?

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But in this space, you have community

development trusts and you have

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community anchor organisations.

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You have myriad groups that have come

out of all kinds of initiatives from

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Transition Towns, through all the kind of

things that along the way have sparked,

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hubs and climate action networks.

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And so on.

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Yeah.

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Osbert: And community

woodlands and stuff and…

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Oliver Escobar: Then community

ownership is a big part of that

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and most recently the community

wealth building agenda, right?

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Part of that was also the

community empowerment agenda.

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So the reason we tend to be

frustrated is because we never really

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quite go as far as we would like,

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you know?

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know?

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Yep.

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I was involved.

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I, I was one of the advisors in the

community Empowerment bill along the

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way, certain things have to, be more

domesticated, things that we wanted there

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were not there, other things that were

not planned to go there, went there.

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But anyway, we often focus

a lot on legislation.

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Yeah.

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It really matters, but it's only

one, one part of the equation, right?

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Yeah.

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It matters because it creates a space.

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Yes.

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It brings people together.

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It's a space of action and

interaction potentially, but it

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never goes as far, what, what

happens after is what really matters.

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And this is the bit that, we now

need to bear in mind with the

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community wealth building agenda

and the role it has to play.

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On the, on the, in

terms of climate action.

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Osbert: Are we particularly

bad at it in Scotland?

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We, we talk a good game.

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We get some good legislation through

never quite as good as we'd like.

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And then it's like, oh, but actually

the implementation falls pretty flat.

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Where's the good stuff there, I guess?

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What, what, actually is working well?

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Oliver Escobar: Okay, so I'm but there

is one step before that, which is to say,

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so we are rich in narrative in Scotland.

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We are really rich in narrative.

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We tend to be quite good at developing

grand narratives and, you know, and

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they, they have a role to play of course.

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Right?

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I mean, narrative generates

communities and momentum.

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At their best, potentially they

generate resources that can be

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mobilised in the right direction.

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The problem is when narrative

doesn't meet capacity.

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So it's this capacity bit

that we struggle with.

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This capacity bit has to do with

the world we find ourselves in where

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public power, the kind of power that is

exercised through the state is actually

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much smaller than we like to think.

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You just need to look at how much

public power struggles to reigning

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and govern economic power, right?

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And how you could make the case to say,

well, economic power runs public power.

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So that creates this sort of glass

ceiling to transformation, right?

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Critical scholars talk about the glass

ceiling to transformation, the things

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that we don't see, which have to do

with the economy we've built, the

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limitations of the state that we now

have after, encounters like the UK 40

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years of the neoliberal regression.

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So, you know, once you think in terms of

capacity, then you begin to see why some

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of these things are really not advancing.

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But it's not just capacity in the sense

of resources, staff, a civil service

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that gets this, and officials and all.

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It's not just on that side.

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That side matters and it's

important, but it's also on the

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side of where the money is going.

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The UK is famous for putting hundreds

of billions of pounds in subsidising,

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the private sector, but not the

private sector of the small and medium

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enterprise that I'm very supportive of,

but the, the large corporate interests.

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And if only a tiny, a tiny, tiny

portion of that went into the

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community sector, that's where you

could see accelerated transformation.

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Why?

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And here, I'm coming to, to your

question about the, the green

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shoots and the positive signs.

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So one of the, one of my favourite

research projects a few years back was, we

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wanted to understand the role of community

anchor organisations across Scotland.

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So we chose six exemplars.

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And community anchor organisations, take

different forms sometimes, so for example,

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the, it can be a, a community development

trust, it can be a housing association, it

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can be an environmental group Sustaining

Dunbar for example, is an example.

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So we studied six exemplars.

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Why did we choose them?

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Well, because we wanted to

see what happens when you

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have the best case scenario.

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Community and organisations that are

really dynamic, make a real difference,

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have a multipurpose orientation because

they're very responsive to community.

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They, they tend to work on all

kinds of issues from housing

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to social care, to, environmental

action, to economic development.

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They do all kinds of things right

because they're responsive to community.

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So they were, they were very, very

different, and they were across urban,

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semi-urban, and kind rural, of context.

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The reason we were given the funding

is because we wanted to understand

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what it would take to advance public

service reform in Scotland to change

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institutions and services for the future.

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And when we looked at the public

sector, we just couldn't find clean

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cut sort of examples that we could

hold as exemplar to learn from.

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'Cause if you learn about the barriers

that the exemplar face, that tells

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you a lot about the entire field

because if the best case scenario is

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so imperfect that's really insightful.

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Right?

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So where did we see the kind of things

that this sort of broader systemic,

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institutional and public service reform,

was happening in interesting ways?

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Well, that was in the space of community

anchors who were, responding to all

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kinds of local crisis in poverty, in,

fuel poverty, in uh, crisis of local

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care, crisis of unemployment, crisis of

health, issues related to drugs and so on.

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All, all kinds of, all kinds of,

interrelated social, economic

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and environmental issues.

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And it was these organisations.

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And they did it with very, very small

budgets, constrained by a funding

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landscape of short term thinking and

short term funding, with literally

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a skeleton staff, who were all

rounders, doing all kinds of things.

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And what we saw there is this

is the frontline, this is how

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you can work in a different way.

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And if only they had the resources and

the support and the legal frameworks,

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that could propel this, you could

have a more balanced economy where

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private sector, public sector, and the

commons are on a more equal footing.

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Which in my mind will bring a corrective.

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To me, the commons is the great

corrective to the excesses of the

349

:

alliance between, the corporate market

imaginary and the state imaginary.

350

:

And those two go work together, right?

351

:

Some of these binaries, market the state

are really unhelpful, because there's no

352

:

market without the state, there's no state

without the market they emerge together.

353

:

They, they are, they're tied up the hip.

354

:

The only thing that is gonna change

the architecture of incentives

355

:

and the dynamics in, in, at this

macro level is by reconnecting.

356

:

And this is where, yes, repair has

an element of, looking at things

357

:

that maybe in the past were better.

358

:

What we saw in that project was that,

with the right investment and frameworks,

359

:

this capacity to to act in ways that

are very responsive to communities, in

360

:

ways that are very reflective of the

priorities of aspirations of communities

361

:

of place, but also communities of

practise, communities of interest that

362

:

you could just really to to tilt or at

least begin to rebalance a little bit the

363

:

way we think about economic development,

the way we think about democratic life.

364

:

And to me the commons has

a key role to play in that.

365

:

So that's what I see a

lot of the potential.

366

:

And it's happening.

367

:

It's just that a lot of this doesn't make

the news and it doesn't fit a lot of the

368

:

narratives of the way we tell the story

of what the world is like right now and

369

:

what the Scotland is and can be right now.

370

:

But for example, in the northeast of

Scotland just now, there is a green

371

:

participatory budgeting programme that has

potential if only, the Scottish government

372

:

was prepared to, grow it even farther,

it's part of the just transition fund.

373

:

But it's a, it is a small

proportion's around a million a year.

374

:

But what this does is it brings together,

community organisations across Moray,

375

:

Aberdeen City and Aberdeenshire.

376

:

And across that region, which as

you and and your listeners will know

377

:

is, the sort oil region of Scotland,

they're trying to, use participatory

378

:

budgeting as a way of involving

communities in climate action, but also

379

:

just transition policy on the ground.

380

:

Now, this is a tiny, tiny percentage

because I think the Transition Fund,

381

:

the just Transition fund when it

was announced was around a hundred

382

:

million and only a tiny goes to PB.

383

:

But, but here's what makes this kind

of democratic innovation potentially

384

:

different, is that instead of,

allocating the funds according to some

385

:

kind of committee sitting Edinburgh

or, or somewhere else, what this

386

:

does is it, it just hands over the

money for communities to decide on

387

:

it through a participatory process.

388

:

Now, what that means is that you're

generating capacity you didn't have,

389

:

because the committee, Edinburgh

can send the money to organisations

390

:

and so on, but it's far removed from

the realities of these communities

391

:

who need to lead the transition.

392

:

Whereas what you do when you open

this space up through something like

393

:

participatory budgeting is that you

are mobilising the energy, the ideas,

394

:

the motivation, the know-how, and the

local knowledge of, in this case, over

395

:

60 groups that have been already formed

and mobilised for the green PB agenda.

396

:

And then everyone else in those

communities get to vote on projects

397

:

and proposals and and so on.

398

:

So all of a sudden you're

generating power that wasn't there.

399

:

You're generating capacity

that wasn't there.

400

:

You're unleashing and unlocking

all kinds of ways of doing things

401

:

that you couldn't come up with

if you are governing top down.

402

:

right?

403

:

Osbert: That really, that really

turns on its head this idea of

404

:

that elite representative democracy

that you talked about before, which

405

:

doesn't trust anyone except the

elites to, to make any decisions.

406

:

Oliver Escobar: Yeah.

407

:

So that's really important because, you

know, in a lot of, media conversations

408

:

about politics and even in a lot

of research, one of the points that

409

:

gets made is that, people don't trust

politicians, people are increasingly,

410

:

distrustful of institutions.

411

:

But actually, I don't think

that that's the main problem.

412

:

I think the main problem is that

politicians and institutions

413

:

are not trusting people.

414

:

I think it goes the other way around.

415

:

Obviously you need both, but

it goes the other way around.

416

:

And if you don't have institutions

and formal power holders and leaders

417

:

who trust people, then you're in

trouble because you're gonna build

418

:

a system that keeps people away from

decision making and power spaces.

419

:

And once you do that, you're

missing the collective intelligence

420

:

that you need to mobilise.

421

:

You're missing the resources that

sometimes are already out there, or the

422

:

capacity that could be unlocked, if you

were mobilising, larger networks and

423

:

groups of people for collective action,

and once you lose that, you're absolutely

424

:

doomed because you are forever locked into

a system that undermines its own future.

425

:

It's because that future is based on

your capacity to address issues, to solve

426

:

problems, to address long-term crisis.

427

:

If you don't have that capacity, your

legitimacy will keep being eroded

428

:

and it becomes a vicious circle.

429

:

Osbert: Listening to that and I

think reflecting on my own sort

430

:

of gut response, I suppose to

participatory budgeting and so on.

431

:

And I've worked in this

sector for a long time.

432

:

I'm familiar with a lot

of the ideas around this.

433

:

I've seen the what communities can do

and all the positive work you know,

434

:

change that comes outta that, and the

amazing people doing amazing things.

435

:

And yet at the same time I'm hearing

this little voice in my head saying:

436

:

but we can't trust ordinary people to

be responsible with that sort of money.

437

:

And I'm thinking, why am I thinking that?

438

:

And I guess it really, it probably

comes down to this narrative we've

439

:

grown up with the narrative, the

media puts out that, basically people

440

:

aren't capable of that sort of stuff,

individual acts of heroism, yes.

441

:

But not collective action.

442

:

Oliver Escobar: So it is a

very understandable reaction.

443

:

It's actually a reaction that makes

sense given, the context and the

444

:

cultural narratives that we have created.

445

:

Osbert: I just want you

to take a, take a moment.

446

:

Have you seen this sign before?

447

:

Oliver Escobar: No.

448

:

Osbert: So we're on the meadows and

there's a little information plaque,

449

:

and there's this bit here where it says,

450

:

" Marchmont sitting rooms hosted countless

protest meetings in the:

451

:

over city planners' proposals to tackle

traffic congestion and inner city slums.

452

:

Plans envisaged a six lane motorway across

the Meadows with tower blocks and an

453

:

underground shopping centre at Tollcross."

454

:

I just think whenever I come here

and see that I feel so angry the

455

:

idea was proposed in the first

place, but also so thankful for

456

:

those people who made it stop.

457

:

Oliver Escobar: Well, and that goes

precisely to the, to the point we

458

:

were discussing that, and it doesn't

have to depend on heroic individuals,

459

:

although it is true that leadership

functions sometimes, you know, are

460

:

distributed and you need to, there are

moments depending on where we are in

461

:

our lives, the time we have available,

these resources are, unequally across

462

:

society, so not everyone can be

involved in everything all the time.

463

:

But the question is whether we

are fostering the best possible

464

:

division of democratic labour.

465

:

Right.

466

:

And it's difficult to do, especially

in a world where we are time poor,

467

:

where we are, just barely keeping up.

468

:

I mean, the cost of living

crisis is a permanent thing.

469

:

You know, the way we balance life and

work and care labour, which is put

470

:

at the bottom of, of the priorities

of a society that depends on care,

471

:

labour, all these things we've built

the, the, the wrong way around.

472

:

Right.

473

:

But the point about whether people will

have the inclination, the capacity,

474

:

the values, the, the right priorities,

it's a, it is a very, understandable

475

:

reaction to when you are fed constantly

certain images of the public.

476

:

Right?

477

:

This happens with politicians, right?

478

:

often, when politicians observe a

climate assembly or a good participatory

479

:

budgeting process, or a good digital

crowdsourcing process or any kind of,

480

:

participatory process where all the

right ingredients and conditions are

481

:

in place, it's always an eye opener for

them because the image they have of they

482

:

had of the public was that wet Wednesday

evening on a town hall, when they were

483

:

shouted at on stage, or the sort of, three

or four domineering vocal voices that

484

:

you're getting a vox pop in the media.

485

:

So these constructions of the public

really matter because that's what keeps

486

:

this system running, is thinking that we

cannot trust our fellow citizens, and by

487

:

extension we cannot trust our communities.

488

:

Now that's a narrative construction

that is very effective, that is

489

:

daily perpetuated by the powers

that be, by the media and the way a

490

:

lot of mainstream media understand

and conceptualise the public.

491

:

When you look empirically at this,

the story is quite different.

492

:

We mentioned earlier climate assemblies.

493

:

Here is one finding that is pretty

consistent across climate assemblies and

494

:

by now they've been around 200, mainly in

Europe, but they're beginning to spread.

495

:

It's happening in Brazil, it's

happening in Mozambique, it's

496

:

happening, all over the world.

497

:

In climate assemblies, which are made

up of a cross section of the population.

498

:

So that's why we call them mini publics,

cause essentially you want, some of

499

:

the poorest and some of the richest in

society, people with all kinds of, levels

500

:

of formal education or no education at

all, all kinds of levels of employment,

501

:

indeed unemployment, you want people

from the youngest to the oldest,

502

:

obviously you want a good gender mix.

503

:

All these kind of things, you put into

the way you design the process and then

504

:

you get this cross section of the public.

505

:

They get support in terms of evidence

sessions, testimonies by all kinds of

506

:

people who come and tell their story.

507

:

Think for example, about the

Scottish Climate Assembly.

508

:

It heard from over a hundred speakers,

from climate scientists to people who

509

:

run a green cooperative in Glasgow,

to people who work in conservation,

510

:

to people who are climate activists

or youth climate activists, all

511

:

kinds of people, business as well,

agricultural interests, and so on.

512

:

Osbert: So in terms of those people

who came and spoke to the climate

513

:

assembly, to what extent are they a

cross section of perceptions and views?

514

:

I can imagine you might feel like

you sort of handpick your experts,

515

:

you can manipulate that process.

516

:

Oliver Escobar: A hundred percent!

517

:

This is the governance of climate

assemblies is a whole area of work.

518

:

The way we go about it at the moment, the

sort of best practise, and it still has

519

:

things that can be improved, of course,

is you set up an oversight board that

520

:

includes people across the spectrum.

521

:

So in the case of Scotland's climate

assembly, there was a stewarding board

522

:

with 24 people, and that included, one

politician from each of the parliamentary

523

:

parties, from the Conservatives to the

Greens, Libdems, Labour, SNP, that

524

:

included two or three academics.

525

:

Some of us, I was there, some of

us with expertise on process, some

526

:

of us with, expertise on climate.

527

:

Then you have sectoral interest.

528

:

So there was, for example the director

of the National Farmers Union.

529

:

There was someone from housing,

there was someone from transport.

530

:

Then you have activists.

531

:

So there were two Extinction

Rebellion members, there were a, a

532

:

couple of youth climate activists.

533

:

So you have a board that contains

the spectrum of discourses

534

:

and perspectives on the issue.

535

:

Because that's how then, oversee

the balance of the speakers who

536

:

are gonna come across, of the

evidence that is gonna be presented.

537

:

So for example, Extinction Rebellion

kept making the point, is this assembly

538

:

gonna talk about systemic change?

539

:

Previous climate assemblies

haven't done that.

540

:

They've been too focused on very

specific issues, which are important.

541

:

But, so that, was really influential in

making sure that the Scottish Climate

542

:

Assembly had sessions on systemic change.

543

:

Osbert: What about from the

other end of that spectrum?

544

:

Okay.

545

:

If there'd been some vociferous

Reform anti net zero member had

546

:

been on that group requiring that

Bjorn Lomberg could come and give

547

:

evidence or something like that.

548

:

How would that fit into this?

549

:

Oliver Escobar: So the understanding

behind these new civic institutions is

550

:

that they should be exposed to all the

discourses that are available in society.

551

:

So personally, this will be my view,

although I'm having these conversations

552

:

with parliaments in other countries,

where they don't necessarily agree,

553

:

but my view is that, there'll have

to be a space for those discourses

554

:

as well, because the whole point of

the civic institutions is that they

555

:

then apply the deliberative filter.

556

:

Okay, so now come over and tell me why

continuing our dependence on fossil

557

:

fuels is good for cost of living.

558

:

Now come and tell me how that is

good for the future of living beings?

559

:

And here's the thing, right?

560

:

These, these kind of voices,

they feel very comfortable.

561

:

In the way they operate

now through lobbying.

562

:

Because behind closed doors, they don't

need to come and tell you why is it

563

:

good that we do this really bad thing?

564

:

They come and tell you, well, you'll

do this bad thing because I'm gonna

565

:

support you and your political

campaign or, because otherwise I'm

566

:

gonna smash you in the media cycle.

567

:

And they're very

comfortable in that space.

568

:

They need to be brought

into the public space.

569

:

In the public space, you need

to engage in public reasoning.

570

:

Not reasoning for yourself

interest or the interest of your

571

:

particular group, but tell me how

that is good for everyone else?

572

:

And that's where deliberation

does its filtering work.

573

:

Osbert: And it seems to me it's essential

to do that as a way of like completely

574

:

trusting that deliberative process.

575

:

If we're saying, well, actually we can't

risk exposing these representative group

576

:

of people across society, we can't risk

exposing them to these unattractive,

577

:

radical, whatever views, it was

like, well, we're we're we've failed.

578

:

Oliver Escobar: Don't

forget another thing.

579

:

The assembly itself had climate sceptics.

580

:

Osbert: Of course.

581

:

Oliver Escobar: It's a cross

section of the population.

582

:

They were recruited on purpose.

583

:

Not just demographics, but what

we call discursive diversity.

584

:

So what you had there is people

who are very involved in climate

585

:

activism, but of course reflecting

that proportion in society is not, it

586

:

was not the, the bulk of the assembly.

587

:

Of course.

588

:

And on the other hand, you had some

climate sceptics, people who were

589

:

far, far less persuaded by sometimes

a few, very, very few, I would say

590

:

the climate science, but the way

we go about the climate emergency,

591

:

which is where things seem to be now.

592

:

Right.

593

:

That's the battleground.

594

:

Yeah.

595

:

So you have that, but then you have

everyone else in between, which is the big

596

:

chunk, which is everyone else in society.

597

:

But here's the thing, the 81

recommendations that came out of

598

:

the Scottish Climate Assembly, a

lot of them were quite, quite, bold.

599

:

Right?

600

:

So, so for example, one of them was

about shifting from GDP and towards a

601

:

wellbeing economy, because they have

had those sessions on systemic change.

602

:

There was proposals for public

free transport and integration

603

:

systems, a very radical sort of

transport policy for the country.

604

:

There was of course, the ban

on single use plastics, which

605

:

was one of the recommendations.

606

:

right.

607

:

Osbert: I didn't realise that.

608

:

Oliver Escobar: There were all kinds

of other things that you would expect,

609

:

like sharing tool libraries and all

kinds of very practical things as

610

:

well, but they also wanted new forms

of community governance that held, the

611

:

powers that would be more accountable.

612

:

So there were all kinds of things

that were proposals, for example,

613

:

for, flying levees of all kinds.

614

:

So all kinds of things.

615

:

Now is this exclusive to the

Scottish Climate Assembly?

616

:

No!

617

:

And, that's the point

where I was starting.

618

:

Here's the most consistent finding

about climate assemblies so far.

619

:

These assemblies tend to produce

recommendations that always

620

:

push beyond the status quo.

621

:

They never just replicate

the, the policies we have.

622

:

They always take things

quite much farther, and this

623

:

is where they begin to fail.

624

:

They tend to fail beautifully because

they've done a great job and then

625

:

it comes to, and where do they fail?

626

:

At the moment of translating this

collective will formation that you

627

:

get through public deliberation

into capacity for collective action

628

:

through the institutions we now have.

629

:

Osbert: I happened to meet someone

the other day who had actually been

630

:

part of the Climate Assembly assembly.

631

:

I think she was quite at a loss.

632

:

"Well, what difference did it make?"

633

:

Oliver Escobar: The reality is that

the majority of recommendations

634

:

still tend to be ignored.

635

:

Let's take one of the most high profile

cases, the French Climate Convention.

636

:

It was the first one at that scale.

637

:

The French Climate Convention had a

really high profile because, Manuel

638

:

Macron, essentially created the space,

the authorising environment for that.

639

:

It was a response to the

Yellow Vests movement.

640

:

But here's the thing.

641

:

It proposed all kinds of, so for

example, it was, it was in the

642

:

news, although this always happens

with this kind of processes.

643

:

You see the news?

644

:

But they never tell you, oh, along

the way, there was a citizen's

645

:

assembly or citizen's jury.

646

:

Side, side example, super

quick, the assisted dying

647

:

legislation in, was it Jersey?

648

:

I can't remember where it

was, that passed recently.

649

:

You'll have never heard in the news,

but there was a citizen's duty that

650

:

was a key part of that process.

651

:

In France, for example, there

was a ban on internal flights.

652

:

So if you can get by train

you cannot take a flight.

653

:

Right.

654

:

Yeah.

655

:

That came from the French assembly.

656

:

Now what did the, what did the

institutional, filtering do?

657

:

It was gonna be for four hours.

658

:

If you can get there by

train four hours, no flight.

659

:

And they reduced it to two.

660

:

Osbert: Yeah.

661

:

Oliver Escobar: Right.

662

:

So the watering down that

happens, that happens.

663

:

But the Assembly wanted to amend the

Constitution to include the crime

664

:

of ecoside, so that it will be a key

tool to reining corporate power that

665

:

that is environmentally destructive.

666

:

So these assemblies, again, not made up

of activists, but of a cross section of

667

:

public, when given the time to examine

evidence, deliberate, hear range of

668

:

perspectives, these are the kind of

things, and not by a:

669

:

In the Scottish assembly, most

of the recommendations has 70%

670

:

support and up within the assembly.

671

:

Osbert: That's what's so exciting about

that process is in some ways for me,

672

:

it's not the specific outcomes, it's

that such a number of really quite

673

:

radical proposals have come out from

a representative group of society.

674

:

Our assumptions, fed by all sorts of

media and so on, is that most people

675

:

don't care about this stuff, haven't

got the time or energy to think about

676

:

it, wouldn't approve of any of these

proposals, and therefore the politicians

677

:

that we have at the moment are too risk

averse, 'cause they won't blah blah.

678

:

Oliver Escobar: This is where

this connects to the systemic

679

:

aspects of the climate crisis.

680

:

We built systems that invest immense

amounts of money and resource

681

:

and culture in persuading people

not to care about each other.

682

:

So democratic repair is

about undoing this, right?

683

:

Now there was always this

classic cliche, critique about

684

:

participatory democracy, right?

685

:

I think it was Oscar Wilde, people

always mentioned this, "you

686

:

will spend your life in meetings"

and it is not quite like that.

687

:

A division of democratic labour for a

future worth living is not gonna be that.

688

:

It's not everyone participating

in everything all the time.

689

:

Although they are, there is digital

infrastructure, that can lower the

690

:

sort of barriers of entry and can

enable all kinds of interesting, and

691

:

we are doing some, there's some work

going on just now, between civil

692

:

society and the Scottish government,

the open government partnership, about

693

:

creating, a collective intelligence,

digital infrastructure to enable large

694

:

scale deliberation, all these things.

695

:

So we are working on the infrastructure

bit, and that's important.

696

:

But that doesn't mean that we all need to

be involved in everything all the time.

697

:

What we need is fair ways of

distributing that labour, right?

698

:

This is why assemblies have become a

little bit better known because it's

699

:

one way of saying, okay, "I might not be

able to go into that, but I trust that

700

:

that's a group of people I'll trust more

than some committee behind closed doors

701

:

'cause they're gonna be deliberating in

public, they're gonna take their time".

702

:

The Scottish Climate Assembly, has

spent more time examining evidence

703

:

than the Scottish Parliament has

spent on environmental issues

704

:

in the whole legislature, and

they did it in eight weekends.

705

:

Right.

706

:

So, So, we are talking about

increasing capacity at the level.

707

:

What we need is politicians

with the vision to do this.

708

:

And this has a lot to do with

understanding the participatory

709

:

theory of power, which is different

from the traditional theory.

710

:

The traditional theory of power, and many

of my conversations with politicians over

711

:

the years is about, "Look, actually we

don't have as much power as people think.

712

:

We have little power and we

need to try and preserve it so

713

:

that we can get something done".

714

:

And, and this is true, it is a

fair point that politicians made.

715

:

It, it connects to the point I

made earlier about the way public

716

:

power has been squeezed in,

in, in the type of capitalist,

717

:

political economy we have built.

718

:

This is true, but here is

where they're mistaken.

719

:

And a lot of the work I do, to create

the spaces for these innovations, is

720

:

to look at a participatory theory of

power that says, when you share power,

721

:

you generate power you didn't have.

722

:

By sharing power, you're

generating capacity, mobilising

723

:

resources that you didn't have.

724

:

The case of green participatory

budgeting, which again, is, is is small

725

:

scale and you know, but the potential

is that what you have there is that

726

:

by sharing in decision making power

over budgets, you are mobilising a lot

727

:

of people and resources and ideas and

energies that you couldn't do if you

728

:

were just pulling levers from Edinburgh.

729

:

So, once politicians understand

that by sharing power, they generate

730

:

new power to get things done and

that that in itself will get them

731

:

reelected, that's the theory of change

that they can get on with, right?

732

:

And we need to understand that for all

the misrepresentations of the public,

733

:

there are also many misrepresentations

of politicians, especially because

734

:

we tend to see the ones who made

it to the top of the greasy pole.

735

:

And that's like a natural selection

process, where a survival of the

736

:

roughest, usually, the ones who put,

could put up with all kinds of things

737

:

and do all kinds of unsavoury things.

738

:

The majority of politicians

are not like that.

739

:

That's, that's the reality.

740

:

And a lot of them get there and get

burned out pretty quickly because

741

:

of the systems that are in place

and the culture and all of that.

742

:

So we need to work with those.

743

:

That's where the unlikely

alliances can emerge.

744

:

They have a key role to play, but for

them, we need to share these ideas in

745

:

ways that make sense in their world.

746

:

And their world is absolutely

warped by all kinds of forces that

747

:

sometimes we don't take into account,

including, this is what Nancy Fraser

748

:

calls this a stage of capitalism,

she calls it Cannibal Capitalism.

749

:

This is not the capitalism I grew up

with, the social democratic pact where

750

:

there was an understanding the the

capitalist economy, if it's tamed, it

751

:

have some… you know, in Spain in the

eighties, for the first time I got

752

:

to go to school, my parents didn't.

753

:

I I got to, you know, a whole

service, these are material real

754

:

things right, that you can get.

755

:

In that case, it was that

social democratic pact where the

756

:

understanding was that capitalism

left to its own devices, ungoverned

757

:

it, it will, it will destroy us.

758

:

Now, now we are back onto that, we

are back onto that moment in which

759

:

capitalism is devouring the conditions

for its own existence: labour nature,

760

:

care labour, particularly all kinds

of extractivism and exploitations,

761

:

because it doesn't really care.

762

:

It doesn't, it doesn't have a conscious

that says, "well, if I continue like

763

:

this, I won't exist in 50 years".

764

:

What we have done is this, we have built

institutions, economic institutions,

765

:

political institutions, market

institutions that are designed for the

766

:

short term . That's why we struggle with

any pensions, housing, climate, of course,

767

:

any long term thing, our institutions

are just not designed for that, which is

768

:

another case for participatory processes.

769

:

Osbert: Let's come back then

to sort of a theory of change,

770

:

sounds a bit grandiose, but it's,

771

:

Oliver Escobar: How are

we gonna change things?

772

:

That's what that means.

773

:

Osbert: How are we gonna change things?

774

:

What does that, what does that

look like in practical terms?

775

:

What can people, working in different

spaces, different levels, layers

776

:

or whatever, what can they actually

start doing differently tomorrow to

777

:

start moving and shifting things?

778

:

Oliver Escobar: Okay.

779

:

So I'll give you first the grand headline

780

:

Osbert: Yeah.

781

:

Oliver Escobar: and then I'll

get to the practical side.

782

:

So the grand headline headline

is this, I mean, the issues we're

783

:

facing, the existential crisis that

we are facing, it is, it's, we should

784

:

stop calling it the climate crisis.

785

:

It really is a crisis of humanity.

786

:

Yeah.

787

:

Yeah.

788

:

Because it has so many

interrelated dimensions.

789

:

Right.

790

:

This is gonna take nothing less

than the largest alliance between

791

:

public power and community power

that we have seen in our lifetimes.

792

:

Now what does that mean?

793

:

It means the state on its own cannot

do It Communities on their own cannot.

794

:

Because some of the forces they need

to reign in are just so powerful.

795

:

So we are gonna need

them pulling together.

796

:

What does that mean on the ground?

797

:

Well, practically just now, if I

think about local government officers

798

:

in Scotland just now, there is new

legislation, community wealth building,

799

:

passed the Scottish Parliament last

year, is now a piece of legislation.

800

:

Policy guidance is being developed.

801

:

Now we come to implementation and

capacity, and this is usually when

802

:

things start to go, in a more mixed, way.

803

:

So local government officers need to, this

is the moment many of them are doing this.

804

:

This is the moment to realign.

805

:

Local partnerships in this direction.

806

:

If you want a green community wealth

building agenda that turns local economies

807

:

into less extractivism or non-racist

community based economies, where the

808

:

private sector, the community sector,

and the public sector pull together in

809

:

the right direction, to rewire local

economies and them generate enough power

810

:

across a federated network of community

economies to then tackle the next level

811

:

of economic development, for that to

happen it starts with local conversations,

812

:

local partnerships, building on things

that sometimes are already there.

813

:

In some places they already

have some of these things.

814

:

Now the legislation itself is

gonna mandate these partnerships,

815

:

but here comes the risk.

816

:

We've been here before, we were

here before with community planning

817

:

partnerships with health and social

care integration partnerships.

818

:

We've done a lot of research on this.

819

:

A lot of these things fail.

820

:

Because often, at this local level,

apart from the scepticism and

821

:

lack of resources, we are not just

changing practises and policies.

822

:

We are changing culture.

823

:

You can change the structures

easily, much, much more easily

824

:

than sometimes we think.

825

:

Where it's really difficult to change

is culture, elitist culture, for

826

:

example, the culture that says that,

certain people know better than others,

827

:

rather than certain people or all

of us have a piece of the puzzle and

828

:

we need to create the table where we

pull those pieces together, right?

829

:

That, that kind of thing happens when

you have really good facilitators,

830

:

brokers, organisers, sometimes they're

in the public sector, sometimes they're

831

:

in the third or community sector.

832

:

So it starts with those practical things

using existing legislation as a platform.

833

:

Now, it then also requires

shifting where resources go.

834

:

It's been a long time that the Scottish

government doesn't make a proper

835

:

statement about community funding.

836

:

They used to do them.

837

:

I mean, a, a few years back I

sat at the board of, the Scottish

838

:

Regeneration Network SURF.

839

:

A a really, really good, advocate

and broker for the, for this field

840

:

and, you know, we were talking about

a new communities fund that was

841

:

coming down, the Scottish government

pipeline, around 20 million.

842

:

And people were saying, oh,

finally a little bit of investment.

843

:

And the chair back then, who's

now retired, stood up and said,

844

:

just really, we've really been

fooled here because 20 years ago

845

:

we were talking about 120 million.

846

:

And now we are glad that we

are, that we are, you know,

847

:

Osbert: shifting baselines.

848

:

Oliver Escobar: a hundred percent.

849

:

Now, if we are talking about hundreds

of billions being channelled towards,

850

:

some of the most unsavoury parts of

the private sector, including, fossil

851

:

fuel interests and all kinds of

other extractivism, business models.

852

:

Why, why, what is

stopping us from shifting?

853

:

And just even just a 10%.

854

:

Osbert: Okay, I can

agree with all of that,

855

:

Oliver Escobar: right

856

:

Osbert: But that starts feeling

like that's a sort of, they should.

857

:

Oliver Escobar: No, no, no.

858

:

Osbert: where does this come back to?

859

:

Well, what can, What can people listening

to this conversation, what can they do in

860

:

their work where they are at the moment?

861

:

Those who are working in the public

sector might want say, okay, I'm gonna a

862

:

bit more of an effort to revitalise that

community group project we were involved

863

:

with, and maybe see if we can introduce

participatory budgeting or whatever.

864

:

Oliver Escobar: Okay, so here's the

thing where, these things connect.

865

:

'cause you mentioned there are projects,

and this is, this is the problem, right?

866

:

One of the issues is the projectification

ification of democracy, the

867

:

projectification of so many things.

868

:

What we need is not

new community projects.

869

:

What we need is new community

and civic institutions that

870

:

work with public institutions.

871

:

So a lot of these examples I gave, I see

them as proto institutions of the future.

872

:

They might look slightly different,

but we are learning along the way.

873

:

Now, once you begin to lay those

foundations, once you begin to create

874

:

community economies that are much more

grounded and where you mobilise local

875

:

power and you assets and resources and

you take more control over these things,

876

:

again, community wealth building being one

of the instruments or programmes for this.

877

:

Once you begin to do that, then

institutions at other levels

878

:

begin to pay more attention.

879

:

The reason they begin to pay more

attention is because ultimately

880

:

they need to get certain things done

to retain their own legitimacy and

881

:

licence to practise, so to speak.

882

:

So the way we get to that shift in this

mega resources is by getting to a point

883

:

where community power and public power are

at the level where they can be fearless

884

:

because they're not fearing that this

corporation is gonna pull out of this

885

:

community because this community doesn't

depend on that corporation anymore.

886

:

And that corporation is there with

a licence to practise that has

887

:

a social underpinning framework.

888

:

Now, to get that, it starts with

this local action and, and focused

889

:

action and local, not just in the

sense of place, but institutions.

890

:

What we have at the moment is.

891

:

We have a lot of people within

institutions, governments, agencies,

892

:

Scotland has over 200 public

institutions, public sector institutions.

893

:

We have a lot of people there

who want to be change makers.

894

:

Sometimes we assume that

these are monolithic.

895

:

They're not, what they are

doing though is burning out.

896

:

And they're burning out because

they're facing, you know, cultures

897

:

and systems that really don't go in

this direction, but they are fighting

898

:

and it's what I call a critical mess.

899

:

It is these bits and bumps.

900

:

Now the shift to a critical mass, right,

901

:

this happens through the alliances.

902

:

This is when you begin to cut across

and create these unlikely alliances.

903

:

It has happened.

904

:

I mean, some of the regeneration

programmes that have worked well

905

:

are programmes that unite public and

community power in this kind of way.

906

:

And it starts with officers who often

actually don't have a lot of formal power.

907

:

They have soft power creating

the spaces, using the existing

908

:

agendas and policy discourses.

909

:

In the direction that helps them create

the groundwork for these things to happen.

910

:

So for people just now, it just

depends where you are, right?

911

:

But if in your, locality or even in your

country, or again, these things are also

912

:

happening at transnational level, you have

more of these institutions working around

913

:

you, there'll be a lot of things that you

could do with them, and for them, right?

914

:

They'll be kind of gathering and

concentrating this critical mass

915

:

and generating capacity that

we don't have at the moment.

916

:

But to get there, you need to keep

investing when you have the time, try

917

:

to invest that time in things that

matter to you, and that build, not

918

:

just projects, but local or grounded

institutions that have this new

919

:

capacity to translate public will,

public reason into collective action.

920

:

And, and sometimes it will be

through traditional politics too.

921

:

Yeah.

922

:

I mean, some members of the Scottish

Climate Assembly became local

923

:

counsellors or, or candidates and

we need more people there as well.

924

:

We need to make sure that the, the,

sort of political representatives

925

:

pool is not the product of unhelpful

natural selection processes.

926

:

Now, once we start talking about

this, then it takes us again to

927

:

these big things because again, a

lot of the things in our society

928

:

push us in in a different direction.

929

:

We don't have time.

930

:

We barely have time to take care

of our families and ourselves, let

931

:

alone, investing in the democratic

repair of communities, institutions,

932

:

organisations, workplaces.

933

:

Right.

934

:

Which is why personally I am a

big supporter, this is practical,

935

:

universal basic income for example.

936

:

Or, having an allowance, which is now

being exploring other countries in

937

:

Belgium just now they're looking at it.

938

:

So having an allowance of civic days or

community days that employers will have

939

:

to allocate to you, say, 10 days a year

that you can invest in your community,

940

:

whether that's going to a climate

assembly, joining a local community group,

941

:

starting a guerilla garden, or joining

a policymaking process at parliament.

942

:

That's all up to you.

943

:

But this freeing of that time

resource, which is one of the things

944

:

that keeps us so subjugated that

will be transformational as well.

945

:

So there are these things

that are not, you know, there

946

:

are concrete measures, right?

947

:

Osbert: You were talking about

people working in the public sector,

948

:

And many of them being sort of hungry

for change themselves and I think the

949

:

more that any of us who are engaging with

people in any, in any position of power

950

:

is like opening up those conversations

to talk about this stuff which matters.

951

:

And then working out where's

the common ground and what

952

:

can we start doing about it.

953

:

And what I'm taking from what you've

said just now, is, that rather than

954

:

jumping straight to what project

can we do, is what processes and

955

:

institutions might we start trying

to embed 'cause they can have some

956

:

longevity that a project never can.

957

:

Oliver Escobar: That is the key,

is that anchoring, is the rewiring.

958

:

Institution, as a term,

it almost has a bad name.

959

:

Right.

960

:

But , in the sociology sense, an

institution is not just the formalised

961

:

ossified structures is just a set of

practises that have acquired a stability

962

:

and value because they create some

kind of public good or common good.

963

:

What sometimes academics call the

structural issues, which sometimes is,

964

:

is alienating because it's, it's things

that feel beyond our control or that way.

965

:

But actually it's not quite that,

because every time you're building

966

:

a business, every time you start any

kind of community initiative, every

967

:

time you start a new research project,

you have choices that you can make.

968

:

And all those choices in aggregate is what

makes up the society we live in, right?

969

:

It's almost like a, a game

of mutual assumptions.

970

:

If we build a world in which it feels

okay, you just need to look after

971

:

yourself and then just hope for the best,

don't place too much hope in others.

972

:

That's a world that gets reinforced

when we don't have institutions that

973

:

show the other side: that yes, we can

come together to enable collective

974

:

action that most people will agree

is for a more desirable future.

975

:

This is the bit that gives

me hope about my field.

976

:

I get to see this, I get

to see all kinds of people.

977

:

the question is how do we, you know,

it's so paralysing when we convey

978

:

the notion that everything is so

structurally anchored and doomed.

979

:

Osbert: Yeah.

980

:

Oliver Escobar: That.

981

:

our everyday practises, our

everyday lives don't, don't matter.

982

:

This is why democratic repair is a really

good term because it speaks to those

983

:

everyday mundane things that we do at

work, in family, in community, that, you

984

:

know, and that needs new institutions.

985

:

This is the, a lot of the work I'm

doing now is to make this point

986

:

that needs new institutions, that

channel that in the right ways.

987

:

We need to repair existing institutions

and we need to create new ones

988

:

that are capable of doing this.

989

:

The reason it matters is because that's

gonna be a big part of changing the

990

:

broader public narrative, and with that

comes the broader public imagination,

991

:

which is a big element of all of this

'cause we are so trapped, in some

992

:

of the binaries of the last century:

market / state or micro / macro,

993

:

all these binaries that we've become

accustomed to, these are traps.

994

:

The Commons is a disrupter of that,

understanding that politics happens in

995

:

all kinds of spaces, not just in party

politics is part of that, that democracy

996

:

is not just something the official

democratic institutions do, but that

997

:

happens in everyday relationships and

the way we build things so that we can

998

:

live together and apart in good ways.

999

:

And we shouldn't forget that for all the

negative bits and all the downsides and

:

00:57:57,196 --> 00:58:01,726

all the dark elements and forces at play,

they're just as many on the other side.

:

00:58:01,816 --> 00:58:06,106

It's just they don't get the platform

right, and that is constraining our public

:

00:58:06,106 --> 00:58:10,486

imagination, our capacity to think, oh,

there are better ways of doing and being.

:

00:58:10,756 --> 00:58:14,816

We are really powerful because, our

imagination propels our action.

:

00:58:14,936 --> 00:58:18,116

But if our imagination is constrained,

our action is constrained.

:

00:58:18,446 --> 00:58:22,496

And if you get persuaded that this is the

best we can get, that this is the only

:

00:58:22,496 --> 00:58:26,006

economy possible, that this is the only

way we ensure prosperity, that this is the

:

00:58:26,006 --> 00:58:28,826

only way we can do politics, then yeah.

:

00:58:28,826 --> 00:58:30,506

It's a self perpetuating myth.

:

00:58:31,566 --> 00:58:34,596

Whoa, we've covered a huge

amount of ground there.

:

00:58:35,016 --> 00:58:37,686

I found it all fascinating,

and I hope you did too.

:

00:58:38,076 --> 00:58:42,966

But what can we pull outta that

both big ideas and practical action

:

00:58:42,966 --> 00:58:44,346

that can help us all in our work?

:

00:58:45,126 --> 00:58:48,846

This is where I hand over to my

co-host, Morag Watson, to introduce

:

00:58:48,846 --> 00:58:52,596

you to our guest listener, and help

us reflect on what we've heard from

:

00:58:52,596 --> 00:58:54,516

Oliver and what we can all take from it.

:

00:58:55,122 --> 00:58:57,032

Morag Watson: So our guest listener is Dr.

:

00:58:57,032 --> 00:59:01,712

Marian Bruce, who is co-founder and

director of Bioregioning Tayside.

:

00:59:02,042 --> 00:59:05,822

So Marian we invited you to join us

today because we feel that working

:

00:59:05,832 --> 00:59:10,652

bioregionally seems to really intersect

with democracy and participation.

:

00:59:10,952 --> 00:59:15,402

So for our listeners, could you explain

a bit briefly about what is Bioregioning

:

00:59:15,422 --> 00:59:17,552

Tayside and your role within it?

:

00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,130

maria: So let's start with a

bioregion and what that is.

:

00:59:21,130 --> 00:59:27,130

So, a bioregion is, is a human

defined ecological unit of landscape.

:

00:59:27,540 --> 00:59:31,720

It can be river catchment but it

could also be an estuary it could

:

00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:35,470

be an island, it could be a mountain

chain, it could be any kind of thing

:

00:59:35,470 --> 00:59:41,260

that people feel is their home,

but is also ecologically meaningful.

:

00:59:41,290 --> 00:59:46,990

And the reason for working in a

bioregional way is exactly that lots

:

00:59:46,990 --> 00:59:52,115

of our human legal boundaries have

some strange historical meaning,

:

00:59:52,435 --> 00:59:55,735

they're not really founded in ecology.

:

00:59:56,245 --> 01:00:02,455

And so if we are wanting to restore

the ecological and the social,

:

01:00:02,755 --> 01:00:07,435

then it actually feels like a

really useful unit to be working.

:

01:00:07,515 --> 01:00:10,979

Morag Watson: And Marian, can you

tell us what Bioregioning Tayside

:

01:00:10,979 --> 01:00:12,719

does and what you do within it?

:

01:00:13,531 --> 01:00:17,221

maria: Yeah, so I am co-founder along

with Claire Cooper, and we have three

:

01:00:17,221 --> 01:00:21,871

directors, the other director is

Kevin Frediani and we all met doing

:

01:00:21,871 --> 01:00:24,021

a bioregioning course during lockdown.

:

01:00:24,531 --> 01:00:30,736

And, and what we're trying to do is

to connect people across the landscape

:

01:00:30,856 --> 01:00:35,566

that are restoring nature, that

are creating regenerative business,

:

01:00:35,866 --> 01:00:37,876

that are working ecologically.

:

01:00:38,366 --> 01:00:43,796

But it's also trying to provide the

enabling conditions for landscape

:

01:00:43,796 --> 01:00:51,446

restoration that will positively impact

on, on climate, but will also positively

:

01:00:51,446 --> 01:00:58,406

impact on local communities, on local

food growing, on community resilience,

:

01:00:58,816 --> 01:01:03,436

everything that we really need going

into what is a major climate crisis.

:

01:01:03,626 --> 01:01:09,176

Some projects we do ourselves, but

actually it's about creating that network

:

01:01:09,176 --> 01:01:14,716

of people that is working together in

a very particular way and have a shared

:

01:01:14,716 --> 01:01:20,161

vision of nature restoration and

local food and resilient communities.

:

01:01:20,161 --> 01:01:21,451

Morag Watson: Fantastic, wonderful.

:

01:01:21,451 --> 01:01:23,071

Thank you for that explanation.

:

01:01:23,551 --> 01:01:26,791

What we're going to do is we're gonna

be pulling out some of the key points

:

01:01:26,791 --> 01:01:30,271

of what we heard and what really

stood out for us in what Oliver was

:

01:01:30,271 --> 01:01:32,371

saying in his interview with Osbert.

:

01:01:32,761 --> 01:01:38,101

So, Osbert, I'm gonna ask you to start

off, since you spent time with Oliver

:

01:01:38,101 --> 01:01:42,881

there, just to tell us what were the three

things that really stood out for you.

:

01:01:45,165 --> 01:01:45,465

Osbert: Yeah.

:

01:01:45,465 --> 01:01:49,575

So the, the three things which

really stood out for me were,

:

01:01:49,955 --> 01:01:53,124

building trust through participatory

budgeting and similar processes.

:

01:01:53,125 --> 01:01:58,320

And the second one again, on trust,

but Oliver said that the main problem

:

01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:05,250

that we're facing is politicians and

institutions are not trusting people and

:

01:02:05,250 --> 01:02:07,170

keeping all the power to themselves.

:

01:02:07,713 --> 01:02:11,963

And then the third thing he said, which

I guess is a bit of a flip of that, is

:

01:02:12,443 --> 01:02:18,383

his view that if politicians actually

were brave enough to share power, when

:

01:02:18,383 --> 01:02:23,183

they do do that, they find they're

actually generating new power, which

:

01:02:23,183 --> 01:02:27,353

allows things to get done, including

the things that they want to get done.

:

01:02:27,743 --> 01:02:29,693

So those are the three

things that jumped out at me.

:

01:02:29,693 --> 01:02:30,983

There's lots of other stuff as well.

:

01:02:30,983 --> 01:02:32,333

Those are the three all around?

:

01:02:32,603 --> 01:02:33,863

Yeah, all around trust in fact.

:

01:02:35,355 --> 01:02:35,895

Morag Watson: Oh, fantastic.

:

01:02:35,925 --> 01:02:39,645

O osbert, you and I have obviously

been working together for a long

:

01:02:39,645 --> 01:02:45,585

time, if that was top of my list as

well, was Oliver's point around trust.

:

01:02:45,805 --> 01:02:48,742

But a very key one that stood out for

me that was somewhat different was the

:

01:02:48,742 --> 01:02:53,332

point he made about cognitively in our

heads, and I realised I do this too.

:

01:02:53,992 --> 01:02:58,372

I think of democracy as being the

political system in which we live.

:

01:02:58,402 --> 01:03:02,392

The whole thing about it's how we vote,

it's whether or not we have a free

:

01:03:02,392 --> 01:03:07,102

press and Oliver's point about it's

actually something in our everyday lives.

:

01:03:07,152 --> 01:03:11,312

Now, Marian, I know that you were also

listening in to all Oliver said to say

:

01:03:11,312 --> 01:03:15,572

with this, so we're really interested

in what Osbert and I took from this.

:

01:03:16,412 --> 01:03:17,462

that resonate with you?

:

01:03:17,462 --> 01:03:19,352

Is that, does that sound familiar?

:

01:03:20,558 --> 01:03:21,908

maria: Yes, it does.

:

01:03:21,958 --> 01:03:26,831

And it really resonates with

my experience of working in our

:

01:03:26,831 --> 01:03:33,141

landscape for, for many years now

because everything is based on trust.

:

01:03:33,541 --> 01:03:35,876

. And, and I can give you a

really good example of that.

:

01:03:35,876 --> 01:03:43,616

So in:

Alyth had the most awful flood a flood

:

01:03:43,646 --> 01:03:45,626

that's never been seen in living memory.

:

01:03:45,676 --> 01:03:50,276

There were cars floating down the main

street, the town was cut off from all

:

01:03:50,276 --> 01:03:52,226

the services nobody could get here.

:

01:03:52,436 --> 01:03:55,646

It was literally just the

people of the town on their own.

:

01:03:56,096 --> 01:03:58,976

And everybody just came

out and got on with it.

:

01:03:59,456 --> 01:04:02,366

So within the space of a

few hours, we were already

:

01:04:02,366 --> 01:04:04,136

cooking meals in the town hall.

:

01:04:04,376 --> 01:04:09,156

There was already people being re-homed

, there was no kind of oh, who's going

:

01:04:09,156 --> 01:04:10,866

to take care of this somebody else's?

:

01:04:10,866 --> 01:04:13,116

There was a, there was

already a resilience in that.

:

01:04:13,116 --> 01:04:17,526

And that comes from living in a rural

place where everybody does know everybody

:

01:04:17,526 --> 01:04:23,466

and everybody realises that there really

have to be relying on everybody else.

:

01:04:23,736 --> 01:04:27,876

And I guess what we're trying to do

with bioregioning that collaboration,

:

01:04:27,876 --> 01:04:32,226

that bringing all these projects

together to be more than the sum of

:

01:04:32,226 --> 01:04:37,356

their parts relies on those personal

relationships across the landscape.

:

01:04:37,731 --> 01:04:42,501

We help people put that together in their

heads from an ecological point of view and

:

01:04:42,501 --> 01:04:47,691

say, okay, well how do we work together

to achieve these much wider aims, not

:

01:04:47,691 --> 01:04:55,041

just for every person, but collectively

as a human population of the bioregion.

:

01:04:55,745 --> 01:04:58,325

Morag Watson: Bringing in something

else Oliver said that I thought was

:

01:04:58,355 --> 01:05:02,675

very insightful and, and very helpful

is where he talked about moving from

:

01:05:02,675 --> 01:05:03,965

what he called projectification.

:

01:05:04,985 --> 01:05:09,385

So again, Mion, I'd be interested

in if you have seen this phenomenon

:

01:05:09,385 --> 01:05:12,955

start to happen of moving from just

individual projects to building more

:

01:05:12,955 --> 01:05:18,745

collective institutional approaches, do

you feel that that's not coming forward

:

01:05:18,745 --> 01:05:20,485

as, as fast as you would like to see?

:

01:05:21,038 --> 01:05:25,992

Marian Bruce: It is definitely happening,

but it's not happening as fast as it

:

01:05:25,992 --> 01:05:31,512

needs to happen in the twin crisis

that we're facing at the moment.

:

01:05:31,852 --> 01:05:36,092

People are coming together to

create organisations and those

:

01:05:36,092 --> 01:05:41,482

might be development trusts or they

might be ecological organisations

:

01:05:41,482 --> 01:05:44,182

or river trust organisations.

:

01:05:44,522 --> 01:05:47,402

People are just going, okay, nobody's

going to do this for us, we are

:

01:05:47,402 --> 01:05:49,322

going to have to do it ourselves.

:

01:05:49,322 --> 01:05:53,162

And there are lots of examples

of those that I can think of

:

01:05:53,162 --> 01:05:55,272

across our, our bioregion.

:

01:05:55,637 --> 01:06:01,257

Those organisations are filling

a role of local democracy that

:

01:06:01,257 --> 01:06:04,410

we haven't had for 50 years.

:

01:06:04,410 --> 01:06:10,410

So there used to be town councils, there

used to be a much stronger local level

:

01:06:10,410 --> 01:06:13,740

of, of governance, and that disappeared.

:

01:06:13,740 --> 01:06:17,340

And we have these massive unitary

authorities across Scotland,

:

01:06:17,910 --> 01:06:21,820

we are missing a whole layer

compared to other places like

:

01:06:21,850 --> 01:06:23,520

Denmark or Sweden or Switzerland

:

01:06:23,550 --> 01:06:27,680

. And it's almost like certainly

development trusts have filled that role.

:

01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:31,820

And the reason that they're able to

do that is that actually there is

:

01:06:31,820 --> 01:06:36,680

funding coming through wind farms

that enable that in rural areas.

:

01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:40,520

So where there have been wind

farms built, there's money that has

:

01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:43,670

to come to a local organisation.

:

01:06:44,190 --> 01:06:46,350

Morag Watson: Close parts if you

want to come in at this point.

:

01:06:46,446 --> 01:06:46,896

Osbert Lancaster | Thrivable Scotland:

Yeah.

:

01:06:46,896 --> 01:06:51,786

Linking that back to something Oliver

was saying was that he was saying that

:

01:06:51,786 --> 01:06:56,856

a lot of people working inside these

big public institutions, a lot of them

:

01:06:56,856 --> 01:07:00,676

want to be change makers, they want to

be helping to do the right thing but are

:

01:07:00,676 --> 01:07:04,006

actually just like burning out inside

these dysfunctional organisations.

:

01:07:04,572 --> 01:07:08,751

To what extent do you see that

sort of a connection between people

:

01:07:08,751 --> 01:07:15,141

inside public institutions and

public institutions supporting more

:

01:07:15,141 --> 01:07:17,301

independent, more locally grounded work?

:

01:07:17,461 --> 01:07:21,741

maria: There's a lot of, frustration, I

think within council officers of their

:

01:07:21,741 --> 01:07:25,851

inability to really deliver what people

are wanting and they're bound by all

:

01:07:25,851 --> 01:07:29,901

this regulation that they have to do it

this way or do it that way or whatever.

:

01:07:30,231 --> 01:07:34,875

It can work, but sometimes

it can go very wrong as well.

:

01:07:34,875 --> 01:07:38,785

And I'm thinking of a meeting a few

years ago about participatory budgeting.

:

01:07:39,025 --> 01:07:44,445

The problem with participatory

budgeting is not the participation,

:

01:07:44,865 --> 01:07:46,455

it's actually the budgeting.

:

01:07:46,515 --> 01:07:52,305

Because often in these cases,

individual projects, and again, we're

:

01:07:52,305 --> 01:07:57,481

talking about projectifcation, they

are pitted against each other and

:

01:07:57,481 --> 01:07:59,611

they're in competition with each other.

:

01:07:59,911 --> 01:08:04,171

So you are pitching for funding

because there's not enough for

:

01:08:04,201 --> 01:08:05,251

to go around for everything.

:

01:08:05,251 --> 01:08:07,801

But actually that creates

a huge amount of division.

:

01:08:08,581 --> 01:08:14,341

And one meeting that we, I remember

going to, when many, many community

:

01:08:14,341 --> 01:08:18,581

groups were at that were, it was called

by the council about this particular

:

01:08:18,821 --> 01:08:24,161

new participatory budgeting mechanism

was that everybody said, well, why don't

:

01:08:24,161 --> 01:08:28,751

you just split the money and give it to

the existing organisations rather than

:

01:08:28,751 --> 01:08:32,140

creating another layer of administration?

:

01:08:32,591 --> 01:08:33,640

Why don't we just split it?

:

01:08:34,181 --> 01:08:38,201

And they didn't like that

because it didn't fit their

:

01:08:38,531 --> 01:08:43,841

idea of what participatory

budgeting should be or could be.

:

01:08:44,020 --> 01:08:46,541

And so it was, so, it was really

interesting that they had almost

:

01:08:46,541 --> 01:08:48,461

been told that you need to do this.

:

01:08:48,461 --> 01:08:51,551

They were wanting this tick box exercise,

and everybody who turned up to that

:

01:08:51,551 --> 01:08:55,421

meeting kinda went, well, actually,

nobody has time to go to another set

:

01:08:55,421 --> 01:08:57,220

of meetings to arrange all of this.

:

01:08:57,581 --> 01:08:58,961

Osbert Lancaster | Thrivable Scotland:

I think this comes back to trust.

:

01:08:59,020 --> 01:09:02,890

This comes back to there has to be,

there has to be seen to be a system in

:

01:09:02,890 --> 01:09:05,081

place because there's no trust in place.

:

01:09:06,404 --> 01:09:09,424

Marian you talked at the beginning

of that bio-regional vision of working

:

01:09:09,453 --> 01:09:13,904

or being aware of that larger region,

which very often in Scotland has

:

01:09:13,904 --> 01:09:17,234

mapped onto many of the big regional

authorities we had in the past.

:

01:09:17,804 --> 01:09:20,124

But the examples have

all been local action.

:

01:09:20,124 --> 01:09:21,624

How do those two things match up?

:

01:09:22,126 --> 01:09:25,576

maria: But I think going back to

the Bioregioning, I mean, yes,

:

01:09:25,576 --> 01:09:27,586

the Tay River catchment is huge.

:

01:09:27,586 --> 01:09:30,071

We, we right on the eastern edge of that.

:

01:09:30,151 --> 01:09:32,821

But actually what's happening

in Kinloch Rannoch, I don't

:

01:09:32,821 --> 01:09:33,991

really know that much about them.

:

01:09:34,051 --> 01:09:36,421

And that's why we've gone

for this sub catchment.

:

01:09:36,421 --> 01:09:42,411

Each sub catchment of the River

Tay is actually a reasonable area

:

01:09:42,441 --> 01:09:45,890

where people do know each other

and they are working together.

:

01:09:46,041 --> 01:09:50,241

And it's not so many people that

actually you, you can't have

:

01:09:50,241 --> 01:09:54,981

this local knowledge and local

interaction at a very easy level.

:

01:09:55,191 --> 01:09:59,024

So we're trying to use these sub

catchments as a nested system

:

01:09:59,084 --> 01:10:02,264

and then that they all come

together into, into bigger system.

:

01:10:02,849 --> 01:10:07,499

Oliver talked also about living

together and living apart.

:

01:10:07,619 --> 01:10:13,359

Our modern world has very successfully

disconnected people from each other.

:

01:10:13,869 --> 01:10:18,279

So we're all connecting online, but we're

not actually meeting people in person.

:

01:10:18,639 --> 01:10:22,029

We're not actually doing

as many things together.

:

01:10:22,059 --> 01:10:25,429

What we're trying to do with the way

of working within the bioregion as

:

01:10:25,429 --> 01:10:30,379

well, is actually reversing that, is

bringing people physically together.

:

01:10:30,379 --> 01:10:34,699

And again, that sub catchment level

is, is real easy because on a practical

:

01:10:34,699 --> 01:10:39,979

level, you have to have people meeting

to actually do those things face to face.

:

01:10:40,369 --> 01:10:43,959

A number of projects that we run,

actually with a Swiss University,

:

01:10:44,089 --> 01:10:49,856

ETH Zurich was about envisioning the

landscape working with a strategy

:

01:10:49,856 --> 01:10:54,846

game it allows people to take different

roles, and actually understand the

:

01:10:54,846 --> 01:10:57,636

pressures that are on different people.

:

01:10:57,636 --> 01:11:02,826

And that was a really interesting

exploration of how difficult it is to

:

01:11:02,826 --> 01:11:08,736

actually come to a shared vision and

how many different kinds of interests

:

01:11:08,736 --> 01:11:14,896

there are across a very, small landscape

and how those interact and how you need

:

01:11:14,896 --> 01:11:20,236

to really work at that personal level

to ensure that everybody has got this

:

01:11:20,236 --> 01:11:25,226

shared vision of what needs to happen

in order to restore ecosystems, to stop

:

01:11:25,226 --> 01:11:28,861

flooding, to, create food, to do all of

the things, that we're wanting to do.

:

01:11:28,861 --> 01:11:33,751

So it's really difficult

work because it takes time.

:

01:11:33,871 --> 01:11:38,671

You are building trust that is only

done by face-to-face interaction.

:

01:11:39,721 --> 01:11:43,361

Morag Watson: so having listened to

what Oliver has to say, what might

:

01:11:43,361 --> 01:11:47,591

people working in sustainability in

Scotland consider doing differently

:

01:11:48,221 --> 01:11:51,791

in light of what we've heard

from Oliver's insights and ideas?

:

01:11:52,271 --> 01:11:55,031

So, Osbert, do you want

to start us off on that?

:

01:11:55,537 --> 01:11:56,884

Osbert Lancaster | Thrivable Scotland:

I'm thinking here of , people

:

01:11:56,884 --> 01:12:02,511

who are leading NGOs or managing

projects, people working in policy

:

01:12:02,541 --> 01:12:05,301

community groups in local authorities.

:

01:12:05,417 --> 01:12:09,247

I'd encourage them to do is stop

treating everything as being a project,

:

01:12:09,524 --> 01:12:15,814

actually look at how we can start

building more local processes and local

:

01:12:15,814 --> 01:12:17,934

institutions in ways that build trust.

:

01:12:18,682 --> 01:12:19,192

Morag Watson: Fantastic.

:

01:12:20,362 --> 01:12:25,252

And Marian, if I come to you next,

what's one thing that people listening

:

01:12:25,252 --> 01:12:29,182

to this could start to do differently

based on, on what we've heard today?

:

01:12:31,610 --> 01:12:36,920

maria: I think people need to

be more involved in democracy.

:

01:12:37,370 --> 01:12:44,990

It feels like democracy in Scotland is

actually very young because we've only

:

01:12:44,990 --> 01:12:47,750

since:

:

01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:56,190

I remember growing up feeling like I had

absolutely no way of influencing what

:

01:12:56,190 --> 01:13:00,480

was happening in our country because it

was all just happening in Westminster.

:

01:13:00,809 --> 01:13:01,800

Well, that's changed.

:

01:13:01,850 --> 01:13:07,070

But it feels like we're not really used to

using it in the way that it could be used.

:

01:13:07,550 --> 01:13:09,485

So I would say get out and use it.

:

01:13:10,397 --> 01:13:13,407

Morag Watson: For me, the one

thing is the, the point that Oliver

:

01:13:13,407 --> 01:13:19,257

made about sharing power generates

more power to get things done.

:

01:13:19,677 --> 01:13:24,027

So for any of our listeners who are in

a position of power, who are convening

:

01:13:24,027 --> 01:13:27,957

these processes, who are looking to

bring people in, I think that's a really

:

01:13:27,957 --> 01:13:32,637

important thing to hold onto, that you're

not giving away power, you're bringing

:

01:13:32,637 --> 01:13:34,767

in more capacity to get things done.

:

01:13:35,217 --> 01:13:40,157

And for those of our listeners who are

working in projects who maybe do not have

:

01:13:40,157 --> 01:13:44,957

control of the budget or the process and

so on, that is a leverage point that you

:

01:13:44,957 --> 01:13:51,947

can bring of evidence that actually help

the people in power get the things done

:

01:13:51,947 --> 01:13:53,886

by them allowing you into the process.

:

01:13:54,886 --> 01:13:57,436

maria: the point that that

talks to that directly from

:

01:13:57,436 --> 01:13:59,116

our co-director, Kevin Frediani.

:

01:13:59,616 --> 01:14:03,846

And it's the reason for the

degradation of the environment that

:

01:14:03,846 --> 01:14:08,996

we've seen is that we've lost the

love for our country, for our land.

:

01:14:08,996 --> 01:14:14,196

I think that was , really interesting

that he brought that fact up about

:

01:14:14,196 --> 01:14:17,856

power that you, the more you give,

then actually the more you have.

:

01:14:17,916 --> 01:14:21,778

It's exactly the same with

love, the more love you give

:

01:14:21,778 --> 01:14:23,788

away, the more love you have.

:

01:14:24,844 --> 01:14:29,554

Morag Watson: So to finish us off,

what's one thing that you personally

:

01:14:29,943 --> 01:14:33,943

are planning to do differently having

listened to what Oliver had to say?

:

01:14:34,407 --> 01:14:37,677

Osbert: For me, the big

thing is, again, is trust.

:

01:14:37,677 --> 01:14:41,337

And I've, I've been convinced

about the importance of trust for

:

01:14:41,397 --> 01:14:45,027

building common ground, finding

solutions together and collaborating.

:

01:14:45,807 --> 01:14:49,347

But I hadn't really thought much

about trust on a sort of the larger

:

01:14:49,347 --> 01:14:52,797

scale at the level of national

and local politics and climate

:

01:14:52,797 --> 01:14:54,267

assemblies and all that kind of stuff.

:

01:14:55,017 --> 01:15:00,207

And I, I still need to think about this,

but there's something here about how like

:

01:15:00,237 --> 01:15:05,367

many of the same processes and approaches

for like, for building trust and for

:

01:15:05,367 --> 01:15:11,607

like listening and stuff like that being

really important and at multiple levels,

:

01:15:12,567 --> 01:15:16,257

perhaps there's something here about,

like a sort of fractal change making.

:

01:15:16,257 --> 01:15:18,482

So yeah, that's what I'm gonna

take, gonna reflect on that.

:

01:15:19,087 --> 01:15:21,307

Morag Watson: And Marian, what's the

one thing that you're gonna take away?

:

01:15:22,773 --> 01:15:28,923

maria: I think the one thing is this idea

of co-creation and co-production that,

:

01:15:28,983 --> 01:15:34,743

that Oliver talked about so actually

doing things together, planning things

:

01:15:34,743 --> 01:15:40,713

together, working on projects together,

that social interaction, that co-creation

:

01:15:40,743 --> 01:15:42,993

is the thing that we are missing.

:

01:15:43,443 --> 01:15:47,673

And it is really difficult to do, but I

think that's at the heart of everything.

:

01:15:47,673 --> 01:15:50,913

And if we can get some of that back,

then we'll be in a much better place.

:

01:15:51,461 --> 01:15:54,911

Morag Watson: And for me it's

a mind shift similar to yours,

:

01:15:54,911 --> 01:15:56,921

Osbert, something that Oliver said.

:

01:15:56,921 --> 01:16:02,171

Having spent the last 25 years of my

career working in politics, stop thinking

:

01:16:02,171 --> 01:16:07,211

of democracy as a political system and

something that institutions and others do.

:

01:16:07,601 --> 01:16:11,471

It is a, a lived experience that

we all need to do and think of

:

01:16:11,471 --> 01:16:16,841

democracy in a much more in-depth,

broad, nuanced way that goes through

:

01:16:16,841 --> 01:16:20,171

all levels of our society and the

way that we act as institutions.

:

01:16:20,171 --> 01:16:22,961

So for me to, to carry in mind.

:

01:16:24,401 --> 01:16:28,271

So as ever with these conversations,

there's endless things that we

:

01:16:28,271 --> 01:16:31,421

could talk about, but we should

maybe call it to a close there.

:

01:16:31,421 --> 01:16:33,861

So thank you very much Dr.

:

01:16:33,861 --> 01:16:37,661

Marian Bruce for joining us today

and sharing your insights and all

:

01:16:37,661 --> 01:16:42,471

the things that are happening in

Bioregioning Tayside, Osbert for going

:

01:16:42,471 --> 01:16:46,281

out there and getting that interview

from Oliver, which has brought so much

:

01:16:46,281 --> 01:16:48,021

fascinating food for thought to us.

:

01:16:48,351 --> 01:16:51,021

And thank you everyone for

joining us for this conversation.

:

01:16:51,241 --> 01:16:52,291

Osbert: And there you have it.

:

01:16:52,651 --> 01:16:55,441

You'll find links to people,

organisations, and resources

:

01:16:55,441 --> 01:16:56,821

mentioned in the show notes.

:

01:16:57,301 --> 01:17:00,421

I'd love to hear your thoughts about

what you've heard or any questions you

:

01:17:00,421 --> 01:17:04,921

have or indeed suggestions, for future

topics, interviewees and guest listeners,

:

01:17:05,371 --> 01:17:09,466

just email pod@thrivescotland.com.

:

01:17:09,875 --> 01:17:14,525

For more ideas, practical tools, events

and opportunities for networking, check

:

01:17:14,525 --> 01:17:17,285

out our website, Thrivable scotland.com

:

01:17:17,555 --> 01:17:19,355

and sign up for my newsletter.

:

01:17:19,955 --> 01:17:23,920

Let's explore what works for people

and nature in the polycrisis together.

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About the Podcast

Thrivable Scotland
For changemakers working for people and nature in the polycrisis.
Join me, Osbert Lancaster, as I explore how we can create the conditions where people and the rest of nature can thrive right now – and whatever the polycrisis brings next.

I talk with people across Scotland who are building resilience, regenerating natural systems and cultivating collective wellbeing. I want to understand what’s working and why it’s working.

With co-host Morag Watson and expert guests we discuss what’s working and draw out insights and practical lessons to help you in your work.

About your host

Profile picture for Osbert Lancaster

Osbert Lancaster

Facilitator, consultant and trainer helping changemakers and organisations create the conditions for people and nature to thrive – right now and whatever the polycrisis brings next. Edinburgh based. Improv performer. Facilitation mantra: talk less, listen more.