Episode 3

full
Published on:

3rd Jul 2026

Cultivate wellbeing while transforming the food system

I was expecting a great community growing project. It was a bonus to discover such an inspiring, and credible, ambition to transform the food system.

My conversation with Lisa Houston, co-founder of Lauriston Agroecology Farm on the edge of Edinburgh, was a revelation.

Join me as I walk and talk with Lisa to discover:

  • How a 100 acre urban farm is enabling people and nature to thrive right now, while also working to create a resilient urban food system fit for the polycrisis.
  • How “community engagement” isn’t a challenge if you create the opportunities people are hungry for.
  • Why Lauriston Farm is a workers co-operative and is strategically building organisational resilience and avoiding the risks of a personality driven organisation.

In the second segment of the show, co-host Morag Watson, guest listener Anthony Morrow and I discuss insights and lessons changemakers might take from Lisa’s story. These include:

  • The simplicity and the power of creating opportunities for people to connect with each and nature.
  • How thoughtful rules and structures make it easier for community to flourish.
  • The benefits of being really clear where you have agency, and what opportunities you have to change things.

Thrivable Scotland is the podcast for, by, and about, changemakers working for people and nature.

We investigate building resilience, regenerating natural systems and cultivating collective wellbeing, so people and the rest of nature can thrive, right now and whatever the polycrisis brings next.

We explore what’s working, why it’s working and how it could help you in your work.

Connect:

Learn More:

Check out ThrivableScotland.com, for netwalks, workshops and facilitation – and to subscribe to the newsletter.

Email me with questions or comments: pod@thrivablescotland.com

Produced by Osbert Lancaster and Rachel Freeman

Transcript
Lisa:

We have Project Esperanza who work with migrant women in North Edinburgh,

2

:

we've got a Fresh Start who work with

people who are at risk of homelessness

3

:

or have experienced homelessness, We've

got at least three organisations that

4

:

work with people who are in addiction

recovery, we've got a group that mostly

5

:

works with women in the local area but

also we've got like three plots that

6

:

are folk from Nepal who live in north

Edinburgh, we've got a Ukrainian plot

7

:

we've got a couple of Polish plots We've

got a sort of African women's plot and

8

:

then we've just got you neighbours from

Cramond or neighbours from Silverknowes or

9

:

whatever that diversity is really good.

10

:

That is exactly what I'd been expecting

to hear about Lauriston Agroecology farm.

11

:

But as I talked with co-founder

Liza Huston, I discovered

12

:

there's also a bigger vision.

13

:

Lisa: Edinburgh's not been bad on

supporting community gardens and

14

:

allotments, but they also need

to be more ambitious than that.

15

:

And looking at, well how can

we be growing at scale to feed

16

:

people in a more meaningful way?

17

:

We're a small piece in it, but we

want to provide the evidence that

18

:

you can have urban farms feeding the

city, even if it's at a small scale.

19

:

Because if Edinburgh had 15 of these

feeding different parts of the city, that

20

:

would have an impact on our food system.

21

:

Hello, I'm Osbert Lancaster and you're

listening to Thrivable Scotland, the

22

:

podcast for change makers, working for

people and nature in the poly crisis.

23

:

We explore what's working for people

and nature, why it's working, and

24

:

how it could help you in your work.

25

:

On a cold February day, I discovered

there's not just one story At

26

:

Lauriston Farm, there are several

operating at multiple levels.

27

:

There's a story of how careful

design of decision making processes

28

:

and rules for participation have

enabled community to flourish.

29

:

There's a story of how people are hungry

to get involved in community growing.

30

:

There's a story of genuine relentless

positivity and just going for it.

31

:

And there's also a story of a podcaster

still getting to grips with his equipment,

32

:

so apologies, but I really think you'll

find it worth your while to bear with

33

:

the poor sound quality in places.

34

:

I'll be discussing some of these

stories and more with Morag Watson

35

:

and Anthony Morrow in the second half

to draw out lessons and insights.

36

:

But first, join me and Lisa

for a walk around the farm.

37

:

Lisa: We're standing on a piece

of land that is a hundred acres

38

:

in terms of what we manage of it.

39

:

It's land that, as far as we know, has

been farmland for hundreds of years.

40

:

Osbert: Yep.

41

:

Lisa: Um, originally it was part of

the castle estate, um and then it was

42

:

bequeathed to the council in the 1930s.

43

:

So, but we took it on,

um, sort at the end of 21.

44

:

Osbert: And so we're right on the,

edge of the Firth of Forth looking

45

:

down over Cramond island and across to,

46

:

Lisa: yes.

47

:

Osbert: across to Fife.

48

:

Lisa: Yeah, and the view is very

important because the reason this

49

:

is, to have a hundred acres in a city

that is farmland is very unusual.

50

:

And the reason it is protected is that

back in the 16th, I dunno, it's 16th

51

:

century, 17th century, when the various

people in power were divvying up the land

52

:

for themselves, they made a declaration

that the Lord's view from the castle

53

:

that's over there, , across the Firth of

Forth to Fife should never be blocked.

54

:

But in terms of urban farms, yeah, it's

probably, and proximity to city, it'll be

55

:

the largest in the UK, maybe beyond that.

56

:

Uh, 2019, a couple of friends of mine

approached the council and said, see that

57

:

100 acres, we think you should give it to

us for a food and biodiversity project.

58

:

And very much to our surprise,

they said, that's a good idea.

59

:

Make us a proposal.

60

:

Yeah.

61

:

Eh, so we did, so we spent 2019

and:

62

:

well, doing a lot of research

63

:

Yeah

64

:

and, uh, putting together a

business plan as well as doing

65

:

an online community consultation.

66

:

We had over a thousand, responses

that were overwhelmingly positive.

67

:

Yeah.

68

:

I mean there wasn't, it wasn't

a hundred percent positive.

69

:

There was always a few concerns.

70

:

Yeah.

71

:

Um, and so we presented all that to

inburgh Council at the end of:

72

:

and then they approved the lease in 21.

73

:

When we got the site, we knew

that we wanted to focus on three

74

:

broad themes, which were food,

community, and biodiversity.

75

:

So that means for biodiversity,

that's creating as many different

76

:

types of habitats that are good

for different sorts of wildlife.

77

:

Um, and then food meant both the

community grown food for themselves

78

:

as well as food production for

selling food into the communities.

79

:

Um, and then community was just

about having as many ways as

80

:

possible to get people on the land,

whether that's to go for a walk

81

:

'cause it feels good to be outside.

82

:

You know a lot of people are

living in places where they

83

:

don't have access to green space.

84

:

. Um, or whether it was coming and having

a cup of tea in our community kitchen or

85

:

being part of our orchard group or having

an allotment or coming and volunteering.

86

:

So that that was, how we set it

out and we of zoned it that way.

87

:

So this end where we're standing now,

which is very close to four bus routes.

88

:

Osbert: Yep.

89

:

Lisa: And it's, it is

very near the houses.

90

:

So it's most accessible.

91

:

So we decided to focus the main thrust

of our community centred work up here.

92

:

So that includes, we have allotments,

we've got an orchard, we've got

93

:

spaces for organising events.

94

:

We do a lot of workshops and trainings.

95

:

We've got seed swaps

and all sorts going on.

96

:

And, uh, and then, and we can look

at that in more detail in a bit.

97

:

And then over where you can sort of

see the gate that's got a sign in it

98

:

over there that's closer to Cramond.

99

:

So we knew from the beginning that's where

we wanted to start our food production

100

:

because , it's a very windy site.

101

:

Osbert: Yeah.

102

:

Lisa: And that area down there

already had trees on two sides.

103

:

So it had a bit of shelter.

104

:

It's still windy, but

it had a bit of shelter.

105

:

It was fairly flat.

106

:

So we were like, okay, that's where

we'll start our, our food production.

107

:

And then we knew that the northernmost

fields that's closest to the

108

:

sea is an important habitat for

certain types of coastal birds.

109

:

So we wanted to do our best

to improve that habitat a bit.

110

:

But we also have, in the first

year we've planted 8,000 trees.

111

:

And we do all of this

together with the community.

112

:

I'm gonna say we've planted 8,000 trees.

113

:

That was, we had about 500 people

help us plant those 8,000 trees,

114

:

we've put in ponds for amphibian life.

115

:

We've created wildflower meadow

strips, we've planted the whole

116

:

of the Silverknowes Road edge with

a hedge row, um, various other

117

:

habitat restoration type stuff.

118

:

All the edges of food, community

and biodiversity are very much

119

:

overlapping and interlinked and

practised throughout the whole farm.

120

:

Um, but it is slightly zoned as well.

121

:

Osbert: Yeah.

122

:

that how it's going to stay or are

there, developments, changes that

123

:

you've got your eye on at the moment?

124

:

Lisa: Yeah, the food

production will expand.

125

:

We've got 20 acres fenced off there

and we'd like to get that under full

126

:

production, and that'll take a few

years, I think, depending on our access

127

:

to machinery and stuff like that.

128

:

Um, and we currently have five,

maybe six, microenterprises.

129

:

And that's an area that we

want to eventually also expand.

130

:

So in recognition of the fact that getting

a hundred acres in a city or getting land

131

:

in Scotland for wee groups really hard

and an, you a hundred acres in the city

132

:

is unheard of we want to make sure that if

there's other similarly minded entities,

133

:

um, then we can make it available, which

we've done already with Rhyze Mushrooms.

134

:

So they, they produce mushrooms.

135

:

They've also expanded

into producing worm poo.

136

:

Um, and we've got Grassroots Remedies

who do herbal remedies, both Rhyze and

137

:

Grassroots Remedies, they sell mushrooms,

they sell, herbal remedies, but they also

138

:

teach people how to do it themselves,

which is very much aligned with us.

139

:

Then we have, um, Anna Liebman who

grows willow for basket making and also

140

:

teaches people how to make baskets.

141

:

We have Lauriston wildflowers, and they

produce and sell wildflowers and also

142

:

teach people and educate people about

the importance of native wildflowers

143

:

and Wakibia, is a new enterprise

set up by a woman from Kenya who is

144

:

growing vegetables for the Asian and

African communities in Edinburgh.

145

:

'Cause there's always lots

of synergies when you bring on

146

:

other similarly minded entities.

147

:

Um, and I think that just makes

everything stronger and more resilient.

148

:

Osbert: You said you saw the

land, you got interested, you

149

:

followed it up with your friends.

150

:

What was the motivation for you?

151

:

What was the story behind that?

152

:

Lisa: I was living in Thailand until 2019.

153

:

. For 20 years.

154

:

I did a lot of community work, working

with people displaced by the conflict

155

:

in Burma, living on a community farm

north of Chiang Mai for 10 years, where

156

:

we grew food, taught people how to grow

food, save seed, taught people how to

157

:

save seed, built their own houses out of

earth, and taught people how to do that.

158

:

Coming back to Edinburgh, I was

looking to be able to be doing

159

:

kind of community work on the land.

160

:

And so this, fit really well.

161

:

Osbert: Yeah That's amazing

though a bit cooler.

162

:

Lisa: A bit cooler, but I mean, it's,

it is kind of reassuring to understand

163

:

that, well, the climate's different, the

work is, isn't that different, so yeah,

164

:

I felt very, very, very lucky to have a

way into that so swiftly after coming back

165

:

from Thailand and not really knowing that

much about what was going on in Scotland.

166

:

Yeah.

167

:

Osbert: All this came together.

168

:

Lisa: Yeah.

169

:

It was amazing.

170

:

In sort of March 22.

171

:

We had this mad, like, we got a grant

from Nature Scot, but you know, typical

172

:

Scottish Government money, it came in

really last minute, and it had to be spent

173

:

by the end of March So we had this crazy

day in February where we got, 8,000 trees

174

:

delivered, a container, tools and then we

had to get them all planted very quickly.

175

:

we did most of it in the space of a month.

176

:

So and that was really encouraging because

it was the first thing we really did.

177

:

Yeah.

178

:

And to have so many people like come

and help was like sort of a sign

179

:

that this was wanted and needed.

180

:

Osbert: So did you recruit such

a large number of people so quickly?

181

:

Lisa: Facebook probably at that

point, I dunno that we had that much

182

:

of an online presence then Uhhuh.

183

:

So probably just Facebook.

184

:

But because we'd done the community

consultation that had created

185

:

a bit of excitement anyway.

186

:

Osbert: Yeah.

187

:

Lisa: And I think word just went and

people were keen to, keen to do it.

188

:

We can walk down there and then we'll

walk over to the market garden area.

189

:

Osbert: So this is

the conservation field?

190

:

Lisa: Yeah.

191

:

So that's a, there's a wetlands there.

192

:

Um, that was already there,

that we expanded a little bit.

193

:

But just to leave that there for the

birds, what we've wanted to do is get

194

:

some, a small herd of cattle to come

in and do summer grazing because for

195

:

the types of birds that would use make

the most use of this space, they like

196

:

the grass short so that they can see.

197

:

Osbert: maybe this is a good time to tell

me a bit about the organisation behind

198

:

the farm and How that's set up because

you've taken quite a different approach to

199

:

many organisations doing

similar sorts of things.

200

:

Lisa: So we are a workers co-op so

that means we have a flat structure.

201

:

And we don't have a board.

202

:

There's 11 members of the co-op.

203

:

You know, we started off we were four,

and now we're 11 and we're working across

204

:

quite a big space And also it's a very

multifaceted project so we've had to

205

:

put a lot of careful thought into how

we manage decision making, coordination

206

:

and things like that and that's always

gonna be an ongoing piece of work.

207

:

So we're um last year we did a

fair amount of sociocracy training.

208

:

Osbert: Why did you feel sociocracy

would be something that could help

209

:

you do what you're trying to do?

210

:

Lisa: Well we needed to find some way

of making sure like it's not possible

211

:

for everybody to know everything

even if you're a you know you're a

212

:

flat structure and that that it maybe

appears that's what has to happen.

213

:

And also people are always like oh

a flat structure just to ages to

214

:

make decisions cause there's too

many of you making the decisions

215

:

And I think that that can be true.

216

:

But sociocracy first of all gives you

the tools for making sure everybody's

217

:

voices are heard when you want to

make a decision and making sure

218

:

that all decisions have consent.

219

:

And that makes a huge difference because

I think until we started putting more

220

:

effort into sociocratic practice there

was still a tendency for those of us

221

:

with louder voices to to get heard and

maybe those who didn't have that to

222

:

not get their opinions recognised.

223

:

But also the way that sociocracy works

is you sort devolve power to circles.

224

:

So have circles set up now, but we're

looking at how to refine it and just

225

:

constantly looking at how we can be

better, and having equitable decision

226

:

making systems and power sharing

going on across the organisation.

227

:

So we've got one of our circles is a

policies and procedures circle which I'm

228

:

very glad I don't sit on but they do an

amazing job of kind of having that to sort

229

:

support our work, you know developing a

conflict resolution process, and staff

230

:

manuals and things like that, so everybody

kind understands their place in the

231

:

organisation and how to play a part in it.

232

:

Again also still ongoing.

233

:

as developing our own organisations

processes we're interested in

234

:

like could we become could there

also be a form that's some kind

235

:

of cooperative of cooperatives

that is also more power sharing.

236

:

But that's a big piece of work when

you're trying to grow food, engage

237

:

the public get habitat created.

238

:

Osbert: If the job is community

engagement, if the job is growing food,

239

:

if the job is conservation, do you

need and the hassle of working with a

240

:

very unusual organisational structure?

241

:

Lisa: Yeah I think so as people who

are all committed to power sharing.

242

:

We don't want a personality

driven organisation, We want

243

:

one that's a collective entity.

244

:

And in my experience having something

that you can walk away from without

245

:

thinking it's gonna collapse

without you is really important.

246

:

And I think cooperatives

hold that quite well.

247

:

Generally in the world power

sharing is the way forward

248

:

out of the mess that we're in.

249

:

So there's quite a principled part of it.

250

:

I think all of us are

quite committed to that.

251

:

Like how do we rethink the ways

that we work with each other within

252

:

organisations, but also with the

communities that we work with?

253

:

We would like to nurture more

community led initiatives that

254

:

isn't us saying: Hey we're doing

this workshop, do you wanna come?

255

:

The Orchard Group they're a group

of volunteers that designed and

256

:

set up the orchard and now they're

coming to teach some of our other

257

:

volunteers how to prune or for whatever.

258

:

Creating more community ownership

of the work is also important.

259

:

Osbert: As one of the founders it must

be liberating feeling that actually

260

:

yeah, I can move on without feeling

that obligation to stay and maintain it.

261

:

Lisa: No I think that's

the best way to be.

262

:

The last entity that I worked with on

the Thai Burma border, it was very

263

:

much a grassroots community organisation

of about 500 people, and in an

264

:

organisation of 500 people there you

don't there's no really room for ego.

265

:

This space here which is closed

up is our processing space.

266

:

So we together with Grassroots Remedies,

Rhyze and us, which is a good example of

267

:

synergies, it's for us to do seed saving

and maybe do some value added products

268

:

out of the vegetables, for mushrooms to be

dried, and herbs to be dried so it's like

269

:

a shared processing space that we have.

270

:

We'll go over and have a look at the

mushroom tunnels This is Rhyze's uh

271

:

polytunnel mushroom growing thing.

272

:

They started their mushroom entity

they were all climate activists.

273

:

And then, had spent enough time being

arrested and stuff And so wanted to do

274

:

something, found it was difficult to

get land to farm, and then came up with

275

:

the idea that mushrooms are a really

good way to make use of waste products.

276

:

They gather waste products

from around Edinburgh.

277

:

And use that as the medium

to grow mushrooms on.

278

:

But then they realised that they still had

a waste product at the end of it which was

279

:

the once the medium is spent, it becomes

a waste product, which led them to worms.

280

:

So in here is what we

call the worm palace.

281

:

Roxy manages all this and we

call them the Worm Wrangler.

282

:

It should be that the worms are

mostly at the top and the poo goes

283

:

down to the bottom and then we get

the poo for growing uh but also

284

:

Rhyze is looking at selling the

worm compost to other growers.

285

:

Osbert: So now they're coming through to

the edge of the polytunnels and looking

286

:

out over essentially strips of land

in the field growing different crops.

287

:

Lisa: Yeah Well I mean it's

the end of the growing season.

288

:

It's mostly the end of crops you

know you'll see a lot of covered beds

289

:

that are covered so that they're

ready for the growing come springtime

290

:

there's a sort of tarp underneath.

291

:

It was a tip that we learned from

somebody else that if you put

292

:

netting over the tarp it stops a tarp

from blowing off and it has worked

293

:

Osbert: Small brussel sprout forest

294

:

Lisa: Yeah, the last bits of…

295

:

I mean the birds have been loving the

remnants Yeah So we we leave that crop

296

:

in and and they they take care of it

297

:

unkown: Yeah

298

:

Lisa: Uh that's gonna be for our ducks.

299

:

I think not for producing them for

sale or anything we need somebody

300

:

to eat the slugs and snails.

301

:

Um and we'll get some eggs out

of it Yeah Probably just for us.

302

:

So this is our field of wheat Wow

303

:

Osbert: Wow!

304

:

Lisa: Um that's very exciting for me

because the story of this wheat…

305

:

so scotland and the bread was started

by a man called Andrew Whitley who was

306

:

very passionate about the idea of getting

healthy bread from healthy Scottish

307

:

grown grains and nutritious grains

growing in Scotland and feeding people in

308

:

Scotland And so he started doing that but

wanted to get people engaging with it.

309

:

So he gave some seed to different

organisations who had a bit of space

310

:

and he gave some of the seed back in oh

I dunno about:

311

:

Community Gardeners who I also worked with

312

:

Osbert: Yep

313

:

Lisa: And they sowed them on a

street corner in the council housing

314

:

area of Granton which is down the

road and they continued to grow it

315

:

every year, save the seed, continue

to just grow it around Granton.

316

:

And it's nice cause it's always a

bit of a because conversation point

317

:

to see wheat growing on a street

corner in the council housing area.

318

:

But it also led them to

opening up a community bakery.

319

:

So when we started the farm we knew we

wanted to do grains So I took the seed

320

:

from one street corner in Granton and

together with lots of volunteers we sowed

321

:

500 square metres up at the top end.

322

:

And then the following year we

harvested that 500 square metres and

323

:

another street corner and we planted

one alley which is about half an acre.

324

:

And then it came to harvesting time and

I was like we don't even have anything

325

:

to harvest with, How are we gonna do it?

326

:

So I ended up putting a call out for

volunteers and we had 200 volunteers

327

:

harvesting it with scissors.

328

:

Which felt like quite a major achievement.

329

:

I think they all thought they were gonna

come and harvest There were gonna be

330

:

sickles in size and things like that

And I was like no here's your scissors.

331

:

But that tested the limits

of what you can do by hand.

332

:

And it was amazing cause to have

200 people in the summer, from all

333

:

sorts of different backgrounds, they

didn't all come at the same time

334

:

It was split over various sessions

talking to each other while they

335

:

harvested grains, still felt quite…

336

:

everybody was like oh wow this

is how they used to do it.

337

:

But actually in lots of parts of the

world that's how they still do it.

338

:

The idea of you come and help each

other to bring in the harvest um

339

:

and do it by hand I mean that's how

we did it in Thailand with rice.

340

:

And then we had a bit of

trouble because it's not normal.

341

:

Even this looks like an awful lot

of wheat to me Yeah But to most

342

:

wheat farmers this is piddly.

343

:

Which means that getting the appropriate

machinery is really hard and and kind

344

:

of expensive So it continues to be a bit

of a conundrum like how do we do this We

345

:

want to do it because the bakery in town's

quite keen to sort can we set up a local

346

:

grain system that's visible and everybody

can see it and it's feeding people.

347

:

And the bakery sell their bread on a pay

what you can basis, so it also has the

348

:

idea of affordability and accessibility.

349

:

We still don't have the money for

the machinery or anything like that,

350

:

but we do have a contractor who we're

willing to pay to see how this works.

351

:

And so this will be the first year

that we'll actually have, so so far

352

:

we've just been bulking up seed.

353

:

But this year we'll actually

have seed that will be turned

354

:

into flour for the bakery

355

:

Osbert: So take us back

to the beginning of this.

356

:

So the green that was being planted on the

corners in Granton where that came from…

357

:

Lisa: that came from Andrew Whitley.

358

:

Osbert: Was that a particular variety?

359

:

Lisa: It came from Andrew Whitley,

But before that it had been

360

:

discovered by a man called Andy

Forbes from I think Rockwell Bakery,

361

:

who's just a grain seed nerd.

362

:

And he had been looking at ancient

old varieties of wheat and he'd

363

:

found this in a gene bank, and so

he'd managed to get a hold of…

364

:

cause in gene banks you

does get small packets .So

365

:

it's a fair amount of work to go from a

small packet to then having larger packet.

366

:

It's exciting to have this and

it's also slightly daunting.

367

:

This has all been land that's

been grazed for a long time Yeah

368

:

It's not yet great land for grain

growing, So there's a lot of weeds.

369

:

So if you'd scythed would've then

had to pick the wheat out of the

370

:

weeds, but also we didn't have

anywhere to dry it and clean it

371

:

. So we needed to transport it.

372

:

So chopping off the heads meant

we shrunk the bulk of it for that.

373

:

it's been really interesting and really

fascinating what we have lost in

374

:

Scotland in terms of grains because it

used to be that most crofters, farmers

375

:

or whatever would have their own patch

of oats or barley, had the equipment

376

:

which is very simple, to thresh it,

and be able to feed themselves and

377

:

their families or their communities.

378

:

Osbert: There's a wonderful loop here as

well, so were looking across the Firth

379

:

of Forth to Fife, and it's quite cloudy,

but just over there is the Falkland

380

:

Estate with the Falkland Centre For

Stewardship, and maybe 15 20 years ago

381

:

there was a community music festival that

was held on the estate, called the Big

382

:

Tent, which had a lot of ecological

and political talks and workshops and

383

:

things whether it's a family friendly

music festival And one year they put

384

:

on a food farming a summer school.

385

:

And I was one of the team which helped

facilitate the workshops and so on.

386

:

And one of the workshops was talking about

how can't buy any bread made grain grown

387

:

in Scotland, and coming up with what they

would like to see happen in the future.

388

:

And this videographer made a film of

this guy standing in front of the fields

389

:

of wheat, because there was wheat going

on the estate with a loaf of bread in

390

:

his hand and talking about this vision

that had in that group of grain being

391

:

grown in the field behind them and being

harvested and ground and turned into bread

392

:

on site and supplying local people.

393

:

Back then it seemed a

fairly unrealistic dream.

394

:

Lisa: Yeah

395

:

Osbert: Yes

396

:

And It's starting to happen

397

:

Lisa: It's starting to happen

398

:

Osbert: things are changing

399

:

Lisa: I was thinking about that even

een when I first came back in:

400

:

and now and realising that you know

there are more mills , small mills.

401

:

But there's still a big

barrier in terms of machinery

402

:

Osbert: Yeah

403

:

Lisa: And the right scale of things.

404

:

There's so many areas like that that

it all used to be fairly simple and

405

:

straightforward and then massive

commodity farms came in, we lost the

406

:

culture around it, we lost the skills

around it, we lost the equipment

407

:

around it, we lost the knowledge.

408

:

There's a guy called Adam Vetch in Fort

William who's been like looking at old

409

:

threshing machines or old winnowing

machines and then you working out how

410

:

to make things that could do small scale

oats or small scale other grains and

411

:

then putting out as open source design.

412

:

He's amazing and we're very lucky to

have him part of the grain network

413

:

There was a man in the states developed

something called a winnow wizard for

414

:

seed saving enterprises, and Adam has

done his magic on it and now produced

415

:

one that can be made fairly easily

in Scotland, and it's open source.

416

:

So we just need him to be employed

full time to make good things for us.

417

:

We should probably pop in and talk about

the community allotment and gardens

418

:

because it's also a bit of a different

model from conventional allotments.

419

:

So when we started the farm, the

council were very keen for us to put

420

:

in allotments cause they had a 10,000

people waiting list for allotments, and

421

:

at the time we literally just drew a

square on the map and went right that's

422

:

the allotments, about 50 allotments.

423

:

And then it was only when we started

being on the land more and realising

424

:

that we've got Barnton, where most people

have gardens, Silverknowes, most people

425

:

have gardens, Muirhouse, people don't.

426

:

We're very close to Pilton,

Drylaw, a lot of people don't.

427

:

We were like oh if we just say "we've

got allotments", we could get a whole lot

428

:

of people who've already got gardens and

just don't wanna put vegetables in their

429

:

gardens Come and see And then we're like

430

:

And then also we might there might be

people over there who would like an

431

:

allotment but don't necessarily have

the confidence or experience of growing

432

:

And so we'd be afraid to say I want an

allotment So we were we were like how

433

:

would we do with that So we decided to set

a rule that in order to get an allotment

434

:

you had to be either three households

from the local neighbourhood cause there

435

:

are no even council allotments in this

area to three households from the local

436

:

neighbourhood to so you would share a

plot There was there's no individual plot

437

:

unkown: Interesting

438

:

Lisa: Or you could be an organisation

working with people in the local area And

439

:

we also quite deliberately didn't go Hey

we've got 50 allotments We said this year

440

:

we have 10 to try to build community as

we went Even between allotment holders

441

:

Osbert: Yep

442

:

Lisa: And we're now I think we're

now about 46 plots Mm-hmm And it's

443

:

been for the most part it's just been

great like a we have full plots half

444

:

plots or quarter plots A full plot's

pretty big It's 250 square metres

445

:

and then half and quarter of that

446

:

So

447

:

Osbert: but

448

:

a group of three families would still

have a quarter plot between them

449

:

Lisa: They could they whatever size

they get they still have to share

450

:

Osbert: between three of them

451

:

Lisa: Yeah So that but was what is meant

is we just have a really nice diverse

452

:

community that does probably reflect our

local communities quite well So we have

453

:

for example Project Esperanza who work

with migrant women in North Edinburgh

454

:

unkown: Yep

455

:

Lisa: We've got a Fresh Start who

work with people who are at risk

456

:

of homelessness or have experienced

homelessness We've got at least three

457

:

organisations that work with people

who are in addiction recovery Um we've

458

:

got a group that mostly works with

women in the local area but also we've

459

:

got like three plots that are folk

from Nepal who live in north Edinburgh

460

:

Osbert: Yeah

461

:

Lisa: We've got a Ukrainian plot we've

got a couple of Polish plots We've got

462

:

um a sort of African women's plot yeah

you know and then we've just got you

463

:

neighbours from Cramond or neighbours

from Silverknowes or whatever So it's just

464

:

quite it's that diversity is really good.

465

:

Nobody's allowed to have their own shed.

466

:

We have shared sheds Interesting Because

it feels like a bit of a waste of growing

467

:

space for each person And also we'd seen

what happened on some allotments where

468

:

the sheds get bigger and before you know

it it's all about going to have your gin

469

:

and tonics and with the view over the sea

470

:

and we were like yeah and we'd

visited another laman that had shared

471

:

sheds and we thought that's a good

idea Sort of part of that ethos of

472

:

sharing is then emphasised with that

473

:

Osbert: Yeah

474

:

Lisa: We've created a lot of communal

areas like communal herb beds communal

475

:

apple trees communal fruit bushes um

commune compost bay Again trying to get

476

:

that sense of let's do it together This

is our one of our communal rhubarb patches

477

:

So cause

478

:

you mean you get a lot of rhubarb

from one plot R And so rather than

479

:

everybody having their own rhubarb

we're wanting to encourage people just

480

:

to share some more communal bits of it

481

:

Osbert: Yeah

482

:

Lisa: So this is a kitchen that we

built from earth and straw from the

483

:

land Got a pizza oven there Wonderful

There's some students from Edinburgh Uni

484

:

actually built that one Uhhuh Uh and then

485

:

alright

486

:

so

487

:

this

488

:

this kitchen was built We had I

invite asked in Raul Library to come

489

:

and help build the frame and the

roof Yes So they brought a group of

490

:

volunteers We provided volunteers and

together we built the wooden frame.

491

:

And then I led workshops

where we dug a pond

492

:

unkown: Yep

493

:

Lisa: We took the clay from the pond

and we'd also grown wheat So we mixed

494

:

it with the straw from the wheat.

495

:

Inside here There's like

there's a framework that has

496

:

then got uh willow or hazel

497

:

unkown: Yep

498

:

Lisa: In a lattice that we then

wrapped the mud and straw around

499

:

and then put a plaster on.

500

:

This is our kitchen We're gonna

be getting electricity soon so

501

:

we can put a stove and kettle in.

502

:

And it is nice because there

there's probably about 80

503

:

people that help to make this.

504

:

So there's lots of imperfection.

505

:

But that's okay Doesn't need

to be perfect cause it's a very

506

:

simple structure, it's not load

bearing or anything like that Sure

507

:

Osbert: So community kitchen what

sort of cooking and community

508

:

activities are happening

509

:

Lisa: Last year we started doing

community meals So we'd every Thursday

510

:

lunchtime we would offer a meal up to

anybody wants to come and eat together

511

:

and so that was nice cause we'd we'd

have 10 to 20 people coming and sharing

512

:

lunch We also do regular for the

allotment holders Let's get together

513

:

and share some food sort of events.

514

:

Like that the idea is to have a kettle

in here so that a lot of holders can

515

:

come and make themselves a cup of tea.

516

:

And then a little bit of a library

And then Edinburgh Tool Library

517

:

came back and helped us to build

the tables and chairs as well

518

:

Osbert: Very nice indeed

519

:

Lisa: We are going to have our first

Polycrub for the community Um which is

520

:

gonna be interesting because everybody's

gonna be very excited about a polycrub

521

:

but it's not that big, and again we're

gonna push the community resource sharing

522

:

agenda and say if you wanna participate

in this it's about propagating seed

523

:

for everybody on the allotments to

have access to because we know that a

524

:

lot of people don't even have a sunny

window to do early germination of seed.

525

:

So we're trying to make that a

resource that is shared is gonna

526

:

be an interesting social experiment

527

:

Osbert: So those who know,

know what a poly crab is.

528

:

Oh

529

:

Lisa: yeah Sorry It's a very robust

polytunnel Yeah So they were designed in

530

:

Shetland and there's a very cool uh also

cooperative in Shetland who have come

531

:

up with a great design and they send out

packs for people to construct And the

532

:

reason we chose a poly club for up here

is one is windy Two it's much harder

533

:

to vandalise and there is a wee bit of

vandalism that goes on Just I think just

534

:

with being close to the city and yeah

hopefully we'll need repaired less

535

:

than a polytunnel Yeah It so it's got

polycarbonate sheets rather than plastic

536

:

yeah the longer term is that we'll

put a poly tunnel on the other side of

537

:

that but the protection it'll get from

having that on this side will be massive.

538

:

Osbert: So before we,

539

:

what

540

:

I mean one of the very obvious things you

said at the very beginning was well the

541

:

reason there's a a hundred acres here

is because there of land was protected

542

:

essentially by that archaic law Um

543

:

Lisa: but also cause we asked if we're

544

:

Osbert: not asked and Exactly.

545

:

Yeah what have been the bits that have

546

:

been special I suppose about

enabling you collectively to get

547

:

to this stage pretty quickly.

548

:

Lisa: Well one big component was funding.

549

:

So we were very lucky in that I have an

old friend who's known me for about 30

550

:

years and just when we'd started talking

to Edinburgh council about getting this

551

:

land I was having dinner at his house

and he picked me up from the station and

552

:

he was like what have you been up to?

553

:

And I was telling him and he said

oh that's really interesting.

554

:

So he knew my work well I didn't know his

And then the next time I went to visit

555

:

we were there was 10 of us having dinner

at another friend's house And he said I

556

:

really think that my organisation could

just fund the whole thing And I was like

557

:

what And his wife first thing was to say

he's not been drinking And I said not

558

:

talk about now cause I didn't want to

hog the conversation let's have a chat.

559

:

Yeah But it's funny cause Chris is a man

of few words so having a chat was just

560

:

like yeah I thought we can do it then

they proceeded to to make it happen.

561

:

They pride themselves in being an ethical

and environmental investment company Right

562

:

Okay They're called Federated Hermes.

563

:

Osbert: So that's grant funding not a

564

:

Lisa: Yeah, grant, and they

have supported us since 21 with

565

:

significant amounts of money that

you could not get anywhere else.

566

:

But what they found is we are able to show

the value of our investment very clearly.

567

:

They commissioned a piece which

was to assess the social return on

568

:

investment And that showed that it was

for every pound you get five pound 80.

569

:

I've always worked for grassroots

organisations who always do

570

:

massive amounts with massive

impact on very small budget.

571

:

So I was like well of of course if

you're gonna put a value on it, but

572

:

that was helpful for us and ideally

we would like them to make a song and

573

:

dance about it so that other investors

started to see the value of making this

574

:

kind of thing happen Not just here but

575

:

So the sound quality got really bad here.

576

:

I suggested to Lisa that listeners might

feel that with her connections, she was

577

:

in a privileged position and asked what

she would say to someone struggling with

578

:

trying to get conventional grant funding.

579

:

Lisa: We were in a bit of a journey

ourselves, my friend unfortunately

580

:

died, a a couple years ago.

581

:

So our personal connection

to that entity doesn't exist.

582

:

He did create enough of a institutional

knowledge of us that we are still getting

583

:

supported by them, but it did bring into

question how how, how long, how much

584

:

longer we can definitely rely on that.

585

:

unkown: Yeah.

586

:

Lisa: I don't know if I've

got any advice on that.

587

:

Yeah.

588

:

'cause I feel like we need to explore

it, but what I do know is that when

589

:

we present our work to the people

at Federated Hermes, they're of

590

:

blown away by all that we're able

to do on the money that we receive.

591

:

And so I think hopefully there's lessons

from that in that if you tell it well,

592

:

it's gonna generate more interest.

593

:

unkown: Yeah.

594

:

Lisa: We are also building a, a story

now we're at a different stage where our

595

:

self-generated income is on the increase,

whereas in the beginning, obviously

596

:

that's, you can't do that instantly.

597

:

I think if we had not had what we got from

Federated Hermes, we would not be where

598

:

we are now because, we've done managed

to do so much in a short space of time.

599

:

I would say, aside from Federated

Hermes the thing that has also

600

:

everything work is the level of

public engagement that came instantly.

601

:

And to us, I think there's also

a bit of a, like is affirmation

602

:

of this is wanted and needed.

603

:

And that was that was a really

important thing, and has

604

:

also continued to sustain us.

605

:

And so that's also important, I

think, to keep on making clear, is

606

:

the, desire to participate in this.

607

:

Osbert: Many people talk about engagement

being a struggle, of them trying to go

608

:

out and trying to pull people in almost.

609

:

Yeah.

610

:

Lisa: No, it didn't feel like,

it felt like quite the opposite.

611

:

It felt like we had opened a gate to

something that people really wanted

612

:

to, and people just flooded through.

613

:

And that means that they

are investors, right?

614

:

Yeah.

615

:

Yeah.

616

:

Exactly.

617

:

Because they're, they're investing

their time and their kind of

618

:

commitment to what this is about.And

619

:

that's huge.

620

:

This is not just about,

funding a food growing project.

621

:

It is part of systems change

and you can't do systems change

622

:

without multi-year funding.

623

:

Osbert: It'd be a great project,

whatever was going on in the

624

:

world, but given where we are with

climate change, with nature crisis.

625

:

Yeah.

626

:

With political turmoil

of most horrible sorts.

627

:

It's like the world is looking at

very different unsettled place.

628

:

So in that context, this is obviously

a really exciting project, but on

629

:

the scale of things, even at the

scale of Edinburgh a hundred acres

630

:

doing this, where does this fit into

that, apart from being a nice thing

631

:

for this particular neighbourhood?

632

:

Lisa: Well you say, we're a small piece

in it, but we want to provide the evidence

633

:

that you can have urban farms feeding

the city, even if it's at a small scale.

634

:

Because if Edinburgh had 15 of these

feeding different parts of the city, that

635

:

would have an impact on our food system.

636

:

Osbert: That's the dream.

637

:

How's that dream becoming a reality?

638

:

Lisa: I think what it needs is if if

Scotland's gonna have the Good Food

639

:

Nation Bill and Edinburgh's gonna have

the local food growing strategy, and

640

:

we're gonna have the right to food, I

think we've already got the right to

641

:

grow, then there needs to be a a bit

of investment in seeing that happen.

642

:

And I think Edinburgh's not been

bad at focusing on supporting

643

:

community gardens and allotments.

644

:

And those are also important, like it's

not to downplay any part of it, but they

645

:

also need to be more ambitious than that.

646

:

And looking at, well how can

we be growing at scale to feed

647

:

people in a more meaningful way?

648

:

But also like it's about resilience.

649

:

I don't think the supermarket

system is resilient.

650

:

Getting more people being able to

grow their own food is resilient.

651

:

It's never about us.

652

:

It's always about the movement.

653

:

So through Land Workers Alliance

and other farming networks, we are

654

:

connected with other people doing

the same thing, which makes the voice

655

:

stronger, we're a big part of like seed

networks and grain networks throughout

656

:

the UK and Ireland and Scotland who

are all trying to say the same thing.

657

:

And so that gives us space

for advocacy for, this is how

658

:

you change the food system.

659

:

We have to be moving away from massive

mono crops into ways of farming that

660

:

are better for nature and better

for the community and engage people

661

:

in the food system, 'cause most

people feel completely disconnected

662

:

from where their food comes from.

663

:

know we did a community tatty patch

last year, and we'll do it again this

664

:

year where just people who'd never

really grown food before came and

665

:

planted tats and harvest tatties.

666

:

And it's like treasure, it's like digging

for treasure and then they just go

667

:

home and make their baked potatoes or

whatever it is they have for their dinner.

668

:

And it's like, it's that

immediate is that tangible.

669

:

Sometimes, it just comes back to when

everything's very stressful in terms of

670

:

climate change and political turmoil, it's

very tangible to be growing something,

671

:

threshing seed by hand and putting into

packets to share it, eating together

672

:

around a table with a bunch of very

diverse people, we don't have enough

673

:

things that are just like, yeah, you're

touching it and it changes something.

674

:

Wasn't that amazing?

675

:

I hope you feel it was worth

putting up with the poor sound

676

:

quality to hear Liza's story.

677

:

I'm now joined by my co-host, Morag Watson

and guest listener Anthony Morrow, to

678

:

reflect on the conversation we've just

heard make links with our own experience

679

:

and draw out insights and lessons that we

hope will be helpful for you in your work.

680

:

Morag: Hello and welcome to

the second part of the podcast.

681

:

I'm Morag Watson and joining us in the

conversation today, we have Anthony

682

:

Morrow, and if you've listened to

the first episode of the podcast,

683

:

you'll know all about him already.

684

:

But for those who haven't had

a chance to hear that one.

685

:

Anthony, if I could ask

you to introduce yourself.

686

:

Andrew: Thanks very much, Morag.

687

:

I work in social housing in Scotland.

688

:

I've worked in it for about 11 years now.

689

:

It's great to be asked to come back

and chat a bit more and actually to

690

:

have learned about some of the great

work that is being done elsewhere

691

:

that I hadn't heard of before.

692

:

Morag: Also in the conversation

today we have Osbert.

693

:

You haven't gone anywhere, so

694

:

Osbert: haven't gone anywhere.

695

:

Morag: To, to start us off,

Anthony, what really stood out for

696

:

you in, in what Lisa was doing?

697

:

Andrew: Do, you know, quite often you

can be like, what, what is the deepest

698

:

reflection that I can make here?

699

:

And, and what's the most

analytical points I can make?

700

:

But actually the main thing that really

jumped out to me was that, and I don't

701

:

wanna be reductive because it's obviously

way, way more to it, but I just absolutely

702

:

loved that relentless positivity.

703

:

Like there was an, an infectious

nature to how she talked about

704

:

things that was just so refreshing.

705

:

It can feel sometimes whenever you're

in this space that it's a little bit of

706

:

weight of the world to the conversations.

707

:

But I just love the way that, even

challenges and quite demanding

708

:

situations, she, she approached

with this frame of like, can-do

709

:

positivity, continual learning.

710

:

Mistakes are okay.

711

:

Things don't always go right,

like, I, I just really love that.

712

:

And I think, in, in the work that I

do around community stuff, I think

713

:

we, we talk about people who are

natural connectors of, connectors

714

:

of humans, connectors of humans to

place, to humans to, to, to task.

715

:

She really stuck us as that.

716

:

And I think people like that have the

power to be incredible, catalysts

717

:

for work that can change things.

718

:

So, yeah, I, I was really blown away by

just how she talked about everything and

719

:

how much she, she really, really cared.

720

:

Osbert: I think sometimes you can come

across people who seem to be saying all

721

:

the right words in terms of positivity

and so on, but you go, Hmm, not really

722

:

convinced, it doesn't feel right.

723

:

And I think what's different in that

situation and, and Lisa's situation is,

724

:

is what Anthony said at the very end.

725

:

Lisa really cares about this stuff.

726

:

It's not a performance.

727

:

This is, this is her, this

is her absolute passion.

728

:

That positivity and genuine

commitment is one of the things

729

:

that's really, stood out for me.

730

:

The other aspect here is, along with

that sort of deeply caring, that

731

:

relentless positivity and commitment

was this, holding this really powerful,

732

:

big vision of this is about making

real change in the city and beyond.

733

:

At the same time was also being that

tangible bit of giving the space,

734

:

enabling people just to get their

hands dirty, digging tatties and having

735

:

connection with their neighbours and

getting involved in their community.

736

:

That seemed to me just like

those two things, which so often

737

:

are completely separated, were

completely bounded together

738

:

Morag: Anthony, I can see you

really responding to that one.

739

:

Andrew: Yeah.

740

:

Like it absolutely.

741

:

I think Osbert has nailed it.

742

:

I think there was a, a real

synergy between her ultimate stated

743

:

mission and aspiration and how she

approached every single facet of

744

:

what it was that she was doing.

745

:

I think that that gives things amazing

momentum when it's going well, but it

746

:

also gives you something to hang onto

whenever it's not, and that there was a

747

:

real sense there that like the other goal

is this, and that is what I'm driving to.

748

:

So if I have that in mind, then I can

deal with it whenever things aren't

749

:

working, because I'm not solely holding

myself to account or the project to

750

:

account for what is happening day to day.

751

:

It's like the power is in the process

of this stuff, and if I'm believing

752

:

in where I'm ultimately going, then

I can deal with it whenever things

753

:

aren't, aren't quite as straightforward

as I would like them to be.

754

:

Morag: One thing that that really struck

me was the way she opened up a space

755

:

and people really wanted to be into it,

you know, when she was talking about

756

:

the number of volunteers that they had

and all the different groups who gotten

757

:

involved and you know, there's often

this perception that you're really gonna

758

:

have to convince people to take part to

be part of the project and this great

759

:

wave that seemed to have come towards

them, and it is when you are around

760

:

someone who's passionate and authentic

and genuine and doing something that

761

:

they really care about with real vision,

Lisa might not think of herself as a

762

:

leader, but that to me is real leadership.

763

:

She created the space and it wasn't

about telling people what to do it

764

:

was about inviting people in and

helping people find their place.

765

:

That one really stood out for me

766

:

. So Lisa's story is really interesting

and she has a lot to say and what they're

767

:

doing is in some ways quite unique

because of the land that they've got.

768

:

But I'm really interested in, how could,

after listening to Lisa, what things

769

:

could our listeners apply to help them?

770

:

We're all here because we want

to build a Thrivable Scotland.

771

:

So Anthony, I'm gonna come to you first.

772

:

What two insights or lessons would

you take from what Lisa was doing

773

:

that our listeners could apply

to, to help in their own work?

774

:

Andrew: So keeping it to two was a bit

of a challenge because I think there

775

:

was absolutely tonnes of stuff in there.

776

:

Um, but the first one is really

kind of linked to what you've just

777

:

said, Morag, the simplicity and the

power of just creating opportunities

778

:

for connection for people, I think

is, is really, really important.

779

:

That echoed the work that I did , what

we always try to do is just create spaces

780

:

where people can connect and then you

see what happens off the back of that.

781

:

And, what I liked the most about

it was the intention behind that.

782

:

You know, there was very practical,

purposeful things that she had obviously

783

:

considered and, and maybe the wider team

had considered about, how do we do that?

784

:

How do we create those opportunities

so that like communal areas in

785

:

the allotments shared sheds.

786

:

It's just really simple changes to

structural stuff where you create

787

:

the opportunity for connection and

it's within those connections where

788

:

new ideas are generated, where

new relationships are generated.

789

:

And I think one of the things that

she said was like, trying to create

790

:

a sense of let's do this together.

791

:

Like this wasn't just her, this

was like a, a, a communal thing.

792

:

And I, and I just love that.

793

:

And I think, you know, whenever we are

collaborating on things, we have way more

794

:

collective power than we do individually.

795

:

So that, that was the, the first one.

796

:

The second one and I don't think

she explicitly said this, but quite

797

:

a lot of what they seemed to be

doing was like to, to purposefully

798

:

remove, like optimization of things.

799

:

And to explain what I mean, like it

feels like we are always trying to be

800

:

more specific about things to optimise

things for the greatest chance of success.

801

:

But like what that actually does is kind

of makes things a little bit more fragile.

802

:

It felt like they had

purposefully built that out.

803

:

And I think that is critical

because like things do go wrong.

804

:

And I think the way that they approached

that, there was an inherent resilience

805

:

in, in the way that they did things.

806

:

And it goes back, you know, to it, like

I said before to her mission that this

807

:

was about progress, not, not perfection.

808

:

Morag: That's a really,

really good point to remember.

809

:

One thing that really stood out

for me from what Lisa was saying,

810

:

and something I think is a, a very

useful lesson for us all was how

811

:

intentional they were with the rules

that they set up around what they did.

812

:

That it was a co-op and it was run

along, particularly strict rules

813

:

about inclusion and equality.

814

:

And again, when it came up to the

allotment spaces and what they set

815

:

up, the rules were really intentional

about, you know, you must be groups of

816

:

three or you must be a communal group.

817

:

You cannot have your individual

sheds, you must have shared sheds.

818

:

And there's often for me, when we're

doing these communal things to create

819

:

really sort of open freeform spaces, but

all sorts of things can form in that.

820

:

But the fact that they were very

intentional about that clear vision of we

821

:

want it communal, we want it equitable.

822

:

And building the structures to support

that was really interesting to me.

823

:

And the other lesson that I felt was

really important that they took out

824

:

of this is how unfazed, Lisa was by

the monolith that is our food and uh,

825

:

agricultural system at the moment.

826

:

You know, she talked about how hard

it'd been to get certain kinds of

827

:

equipment and certain seeds because

industrialised farming mean those

828

:

things just don't exist anymore.

829

:

And when we talk about thriving and talk

about you a sustainable food system and

830

:

you look at just the huge industrial

multinational behemoth that is our

831

:

food system, you can really question

where would you ever start with this.

832

:

But the fact that Lisa hadn't tried

to solve the whole problem, she

833

:

just looked at, I'm in Edinburgh,

I have agency in Edinburgh, how do

834

:

I solve this issue in Edinburgh?

835

:

I think that's a, a really

useful lesson that I would

836

:

encourage our readers to take.

837

:

A reader, sorry, I've been doing book

club as well our listeners, to take away

838

:

from this one of, you know, it seems

overwhelming, but look at what's in

839

:

front of you and where you have agency.

840

:

So Osbert I'd like to bring

your voice in on this one.

841

:

Again, things that stood out for you that

could be carried through for, for others.

842

:

Osbert: Yeah, so just to pick up

on one of the things that you said

843

:

Morag, you mentioned the governance

and decision making structure, which

844

:

is sociocracy, which I've got a bit of

experience of, and it can be difficult

845

:

and complex to get your head around it.

846

:

And it's, 'cause it's so different

from what we're used to and people

847

:

just say, oh, just tell me what to do.

848

:

And it's like, no,

we're not gonna do that.

849

:

So I hugely admire them for

deciding to do that and working

850

:

really hard to make it work.

851

:

As I was walking around with her,

there's quite a few times she said,

852

:

I dunno what's going on here because

I'm not involved in that with a sense

853

:

of complete trust rather than worry

that I don't know what's going on.

854

:

So that's a, to sort of wrap up that bit.

855

:

So two things for me is, I think.

856

:

One could look at what Lisa, and

everyone there is doing and say, oh,

857

:

it's a special case, it's so unusual

that we can never do something like that.

858

:

There was a hundred acres of land on

the edges of Edinburgh, which hasn't been

859

:

developed, which has no development value

there's nothing like that anywhere else.

860

:

We, we can't do that.

861

:

And then the similarly with the, um,

this, this particular funder, Federated

862

:

Hermes who have been really helpful in

allowing them to move at such speed.

863

:

But I guess that, any successful

project, when you dig into it a

864

:

little bit, you discover they each

have their own version of it was the

865

:

right time, it was the right place.

866

:

So I would say don't be put off

by that, so I think that would

867

:

be one insight and the other one I

suppose is, is around, around scale.

868

:

It's like one level it's about

digging tatties and having

869

:

community meals at the other.

870

:

It's about changing the food system.

871

:

And there's also this bit in the middle,

which is all about the connections with

872

:

other organisations locally, she also

mentioned like UK wide organisations

873

:

like the Land Workers Alliance, the,

the seed networks, which are across the

874

:

British Isles sharing seeds and stuff.

875

:

So I think, working at these multiple

scales is one of the things which I

876

:

think has informed their approach and is

sustaining their enthusiasm and energy.

877

:

So I would say for anyone working

in any sort of project like this or

878

:

looking to, set something like this, and

whether it's food or anything else is

879

:

saying what are, what are the different

scales at which we need to be engaging?

880

:

And at different times, you may need

to focus on one rather than the other.

881

:

And going along with that is asking what's

our, what's our fundamental purpose here?

882

:

What are we really trying to do?

883

:

Back to what Lisa saying they want

to provide the evidence that you can

884

:

have urban farms feeding the city,

and it's saying, well, what is it?

885

:

What's the purpose?

886

:

What do you want to be

different as a result?

887

:

Morag: Anthony, was there anything else

that, you wanted to bring back in?

888

:

Andrew: I think she, she finished off by

talking about, how she saw the response

889

:

from people whenever they were doing

something tangible, something they could

890

:

touch and something they could change.

891

:

Like I think that is, is really important

because I think sometimes you can get kind

892

:

of lost in the systems change, it can

become so strategic and you don't actually

893

:

see things changing right in front of you.

894

:

A lot of my world is that strategic

one, but I purposefully try to go

895

:

out and, and meet community members

and ground myself in the tangible.

896

:

It makes such a massive difference

to whenever other times come where

897

:

you think I'm making no progress.

898

:

And so I, I just love that idea of like

change that you can touch, see, hear.

899

:

I think that's a, a really critical

aspect of, of what she's doing.

900

:

And I I would definitely say projects

that, that work well, they can do both.

901

:

Morag: Great point.

902

:

Definitely one to remember.

903

:

And there you have it.

904

:

You'll find links to some of the

people, organisations, and resources

905

:

mentioned in the show notes.

906

:

I'd love to hear your thoughts about what

you've heard or any questions you have or

907

:

indeed suggestions for future episodes.

908

:

Just email pod@thrivablescotland.com.

909

:

And finally, drivable Scotland

is more than just this podcast.

910

:

I also run networks and workshops

and offer facilitation services for

911

:

and by change makers, working for

people and nature in the poly crisis.

912

:

Check out my website,

Thrivable scotland.com

913

:

for details, and you can also

sign up for my newsletter.

914

:

Let's explore what works for people

in nature in the poly crisis together.

915

:

Lisa: We've heard stories from local

neighbours of the shepherd with the long

916

:

beard and the crook that used to walk up

and down here, or the cows that used to

917

:

get out and wander into the neighbourhood.

All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for Thrivable Scotland

About the Podcast

Thrivable Scotland
For changemakers working for people and nature in the polycrisis.
Join me, Osbert Lancaster, as I explore how we can create the conditions where people and the rest of nature can thrive right now – and whatever the polycrisis brings next.

I talk with people across Scotland who are building resilience, regenerating natural systems and cultivating collective wellbeing. I want to understand what’s working and why it’s working.

With co-host Morag Watson and expert guests we discuss what’s working and draw out insights and practical lessons to help you in your work.

About your host

Profile picture for Osbert Lancaster

Osbert Lancaster

Facilitator, consultant and trainer helping changemakers and organisations create the conditions for people and nature to thrive – right now and whatever the polycrisis brings next. Edinburgh based. Improv performer. Facilitation mantra: talk less, listen more.